Swivel removal - after 18 years on salty northern roads...

[Northwards]

Hi folks, 

As the title says I'm removing the swivels as part of a front axle 'refurb' - part of this winter's work programme before the sun returns. 

I know I fitted these ones, and my best guess is it was about 17 -18 years. These days, if I remember, I spray some Dinitrol on new bolts/nuts. I wasn't doing this back then. 

With single hex bolts if they're badly corroded, I find I can tap round them with a cold chisel and bring it back to something resembling a hexagon. No such luck with 12 pointers. 

I had to look out the new bolts to confirm what size the heads are supposed to be (14mm). A 14mm spanner just spins around; a 13 won't go on. 

So it looks like Mr Grinder will have his fun once again - but just to ask is there anything obvious I'm missing? This will only be the second time I've ever done this job, and at the last point, the car was only 7 or 8 years old. 

I tried the grinder on one of the heads, just to see if it was feasible. I realised I don't need to cut through the washer, just the bolt head, but is this the 'standard' approach? ? 

Ta

[Retroanaconda]

If you’re changing the balls then the alternative would be to cut those off at the neck, and then you can knock an appropriately-sized socket on to remove the bolts. 

[Northwards]

Thank you. Balls are definitely being changed. I hadn't thought of cutting through the neck at all. I assumed that would be much harder/thicker metal and that taking the bolt heads off would be easier? 

I think I'd need to use my bigger grinder too, as I don't think the cordless one would go in far enough without fouling on the flare of the ball, or on the axle flange. 

[paime]

Will the grinder foul on the bottom of the spring seat? Looks quite tight to me and I reckon cutting the ball at the neck might be easier.

[monkie]

Just to point out the bleedin' obvious, but... As soon as a you take a grinder to the job, you are 100% committed to finding a way of undoing every single one of those bolts. Are you absolutely sure you cannot get them moving by giving them a soak in releasing agent for a few days, good bit of heat followed by some brute force? 

[Northwards]

I saw the spring seat issue myself, but there are new springs waiting to go on so that's not a biggie, thanks. 

Heat and plus gas etc - a day or so to wait wouldn't make any difference, but I just can't see any way to get a spanner onto those bolts. They all have a covering of 'blown' rust - once that comes off I think I'd be looking for a 13.5mm 12 point long ring spanner. Just as I was writing that I wondered what that might be in AF 17/32s apparently.

So I think that's my main issue really finding any way of applying brute force to them. 14mm spins around, 13mm won't go on, and cleaning all the serrations of the 12 point bolt is difficult. 

I reckon if I put a new disc on the grinder I'll have enough clearance to whizz round them all. It would be nicer to undo them but I can't really see that. If any of the left over studs won't shift I have a decent set of extractors. 

Is cutting the neck of the ball a common solution?? 

 

 

[monkie]

2 hours ago, Northwards said:

Just as I was writing that I wondered what that might be in AF 17/32s apparently

Exactly, try getting some weird and wonderful none metric stuff to fit. Even with the ball cut off you may well have this same issue. I appreciate this is bodge it territory, but have you tried to see if you can get enough purchase using a Stilson pipe wrench? 

[Dave9252]

Can try a stud extractor socket, pound it onto the head and undo. 

 

[Mossberg]

Remember with a stud extractor you still have the same number of stuck bolts and each one will need tackling on an individual basis. 

My preferred option would be to cut off the ball to give as much possible access, clean the heads as best you can (time here will be well spent), find a strong spanner or socket that is a real snug fit and use heat/quenching. 

You have two main points here - fitting a tool that will transfere as much force as possible to turn the bolt, and using methods to break the corrosion that is binding the fixing to the axle case. 

I have had to remove some bolts that were dubious as to if they would come out and heat was the difference in my case. Oxy-acetylene would be good if you could get it or perhaps an induction heater (none of which I had) or if not then mapp gas. I used a Rothenberger superfire 2 as that was recommended to me by a forum member. 

Remember you have seven individual bolts to address and that is potentially a lot of work if you have to start using stud extractors.

[Stellaghost]

All the above is very good advice and I get where your going by cutting the heads off

I have also previously removed the bolt heads with a grinder, and removed the ball to be left with ends that you can grip with some strong mole grips, this method worked very well for me. It works because once the bolt head is off the holding tension is released therefore allowing the threads to become slack, In the past I've found that the remaining amount of stud comes out fairly easily, on occasion a wee bit of heat to the outside of the flange.

Just my own experience regards Stephen

[muddy]

Cut the ball off with a 9" grinder/stihl saw/bandsaw/recip saw and then wire brush in a drill or angle grinder on any exposed threads at the back and round the bolt heads, give every bolt a direct smack or two towards the diff with a good hammer and then knock a socket onto the head.

Take the first one right out and if there are signs of loctite warm around the flange with a MAPP blowtorch, you don't have to go silly this will just soften the lactate so it breaks free.

[Junglie]

What about one of those weird self tightening adjustable ring spanner things? Y'know - there's a pivoting ring head and a cam that tightens the more you pull on it. I've had some success with those on seized fasteners in the past - they look like they should be carp but actually...

Or a small Stillson and an extension pole?

[landroversforever]

I'm with the cut off the heads and deal with the studs camp. Once the heads are off there won't be any tension on what's left of the bolts and gives you good access to the front side for penetrants etc. Also space for sockets and welding a nut on the studs if required. 

Also, remember to get your chosen penetrant fluid on the back side of the flange.

[Junglie]

This is the sort of thing:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/WORKPRO-Adjustable-2-Pieces-Multi-function-Universal/dp/B01L6SSKJM/ref=asc_df_B01L6SSKJM/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=226606326869&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10502032645552235605&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045912&hvtargid=pla-351236088629&psc=1

[Northwards]

Thanks very much for all the advice. 👍 A range of suggestions there on a spectrum from brutal to elegant! At least I started today knowing I was on the right track, and not missing anything obvious. 

I did look at what tools I had - 1/2" AF spanners; a cam-based pipe wrench like the thing Junglie linked to (though not as useful); but nothing was going to shift those bolts with the ball in place. So much for elegant.... time to get brutal.

To be honest I'm a bit wary of my 240v 9" grinder. While I use the 4.5" one quite a lot, the larger one stays in the drawer. So this morning I tried to avoid using it by taking the heads off the bolts - but I was still going to be stuck with that last one, tucked under the spring seat. So - out came the big fella - but it's still heavy and hard work and a real spark-fest getting through a piece of steel that thick.

With the ball out of the way, I tapped a socket onto the remaining nut and that turned OK. 

Those studs came out fairly easily with a set of vice-grips. Result. 

On the other side, I just went straight to the big grinder through the neck of the ball. Like I say it's a big piece of steel. Then some serial abuse of a 1980's vintage Halfords socket. In the end it did crack, but it stayed tight enough to finish the job and take all those bolts out - a warrior's end. It's been with me since my early days working on the Minis, so it owes me nothing and was due its retirement. 

Now that I can turn to the rebuild, my next question is how on earth you get any idea of the torque you're applying to those bolts when you're tightening them up....? Would a 12pt crow'sfoot give the clearance?

 

 

[Stellaghost]

49 minutes ago, Northwards said:

Thanks very much for all the advice. 👍 A range of suggestions there on a spectrum from brutal to elegant! At least I started today knowing I was on the right track, and not missing anything obvious. 

I did look at what tools I had - 1/2" AF spanners; a cam-based pipe wrench like the thing Junglie linked to (though not as useful); but nothing was going to shift those bolts with the ball in place. So much for elegant.... time to get brutal.

To be honest I'm a bit wary of my 240v 9" grinder. While I use the 4.5" one quite a lot, the larger one stays in the drawer. So this morning I tried to avoid using it by taking the heads off the bolts - but I was still going to be stuck with that last one, tucked under the spring seat. So - out came the big fella - but it's still heavy and hard work and a real spark-fest getting through a piece of steel that thick.

With the ball out of the way, I tapped a socket onto the remaining nut and that turned OK. 

Those studs came out fairly easily with a set of vice-grips. Result. 

On the other side, I just went straight to the big grinder through the neck of the ball. Like I say it's a big piece of steel. Then some serial abuse of a 1980's vintage Halfords socket. In the end it did crack, but it stayed tight enough to finish the job and take all those bolts out - a warrior's end. It's been with me since my early days working on the Minis, so it owes me nothing and was due its retirement. 

Now that I can turn to the rebuild, my next question is how on earth you get any idea of the torque you're applying to those bolts when you're tightening them up....? Would a 12pt crow'sfoot give the clearance?

 

 

I tighten them up with a 12 point 14mm spanner and a wee bit of threadlock, never ever torqued them, never had an issue regards Stephen

[Retroanaconda]

I use a calibrated jack handle over the cut off end of a 14mm ring spanner, and do them up ‘FT’. With threadlock as above.

[western]

I used a 14mm spanner & got the bolts as tight as I could by hand then flogged each bolts 3 times with the spanner & hammer & threadlock on the threads. 

[elbekko]

12 hours ago, Northwards said:

Now that I can turn to the rebuild, my next question is how on earth you get any idea of the torque you're applying to those bolts when you're tightening them up....? Would a 12pt crow'sfoot give the clearance?

About 3 groans, and you must say "click".

[Northwards]

Thanks all - I’ll practice my groans and clicks!

I did find a 12pt crows foot so will probably try that before resorting to more ‘traditional’ methods… 

[landroversforever]

One thought which is very much a bit late…. In this case the swivel ball is relatively cheap and you knew it needed replacing. I’d always aim to keep everything intact and do it the way suggested above because you never know when you may not have option to chop stuff for better access. Practice makes perfect and all that. 

[muddy]

Buy a set of aviation long pattern ring spanner’s, a nice ‘tight’ on them and jobs a peach. 
 

Like these

 

They will almost certainly become the ‘go to’ spanner.

[Snagger]

Their price doubled just for having the word “aviation” on them! 😆. Halford Professional range tools are good enough quality.

[landroversforever]

2 hours ago, Snagger said:

Their price doubled just for having the word “aviation” on them! 😆. Halford Professional range tools are good enough quality.

Whilst their stuff is great, they don't do the long handled spanners @muddy mentions.

[Stellaghost]

2 hours ago, Snagger said:

Their price doubled just for having the word “aviation” on them! 😆.

But still a fraction of the price Snap on would cost

Regards Stephen