Building for the future

[honitonhobbit]

Driving to-from an event is less than ideal though.

In many cases i think competitors should not be allowed to drive home in there vehicles on the road after competing.

IMHO it's lunacy to drive a comp car on the road for any reason other than as part of a competition.

Why not opt for the same sort of idea used in trials? RTV - drive to competition, UberMod - trailer.

Lay out to suit. Lay out to avoid damage...

[Daan]

IMHO it's lunacy to drive a comp car on the road for any reason other than as part of a competition.

Dan, that is total BS.

My machine is the daily driver at the moment.

Daan

[Petergg]

I drive 1500miles to an event do the event and then drive home 1500miles, I have also found broken steering/suspension parts when I have got home which is not good.

I do inspect the motor the best I can before leaving but it not like having the ramp to do it.

I have a trailer and a Toyota Land Cruiser which would tow my 90 with ease but I prefer to drive my comp motor to the event and back that to me is part of the fun and challenge, I pay for Green Flag Europe so am covered if needed.

I did use to take my racer to hill rallies etc. on a trailer and more often that not that came home bent (tree's kept jumping out on me) I am sure if I had to drive home it would not have been bent so often.

You can override the MOT computer for day light MOT only.

Peter

[MogLite]

...I lost a caliper, managed a field repair and drove home(local event)

then waited for a new caliper to arrive so I drove around fro a few more days minus a rear brake.

funnily it made next to no difference to the braking of the car.

I'm sure the solicitor acting on behalf of the bus-shelter full of flatened people.....may view things a little different.

Anyone want to buy a nice tow-truck - just to make sure.....

[najw]

If everyone picked a spec, be it MSA orienteering event class or whatever, and then ran all their events to it, people would get used to it. As more people built to accommodate that spec, other events would hopefully adopt it and thus a standard could be created.

I don't think we are that far away from this scenario. If you take AWDC, CSW. JST, MOC and Challenger the regs are almost identical (there is a reason for this) and if not compliant almost MSA compliant.

In my opinion the problem lies with the traditional, one off, big name challenge events which survive from pre-MSA sanctioned days. These seem to run to their own regulations and (presumably) with questionable insurance.

An example would be the guy who turns up at an AWDC event with a dry powder extinguisher on board and is refused entry. 'But I've done this event and that event with it' he argues. Dry powder isn't acceptable in any form of sanctioned motorsport in the UK so what he was doing doesn't constitute motorsport and he can't understand this.

Another example would be the recent 90 Degree Challenge at Manby. How was this event insured and what protection was in place for the drivers?

We might come to a conscensus amongst those who debate on this forum, but there are many other organisers who will remain out on their own.

[bathtub]

Paul,

Just a couple of points

Why have you never mentioned about modified winches ??surely we should all run the same winches if we have to run the same size tyre No hyraulic maybe or only 4hp warn winches .They make as much difference as tyres to most people & some more as all they do is winch sections all day

Would you make us stick to 12V or is 24V oK if it is can we run 110V winch motors ???

Are 2 200amp alternators ok or should you stay to 1 85 amp as standard .

If Hydraulic can the motors & pumps be uprated ???

Waffles all the same size no connectable ladders ???

Start with rules & it will never stop unless of course you want to go back to the COR bit of just ban what i dont or my sponsors dont sell policy

As to insurance i think thats the easy bit .My company Adrian Flux dont care what it has done to it pretty much once you insure them as kit cars all they require is a engineers report & some photos .They were cool about 4 steer etc & mog axles

[dollythelw]

I think this thread demonstrates one constant - diversity in all things, build, racing ethos, priorities, and personalities - I try my best to respect differences even if I cant understand them, everyones just doing it the best way they can.

Im guessing that if this thread is anything to go by then organisers of future events will have to take pot luck with whatever format/class structure they come up with and keep thier fingers crossed that the "class" finds enough subscribers to make it viable to run - hopefully that popularity contest wont find a single clear winner which IMO would lead to a more blinkered and isolated approach to this islands offroading.

pah - enough being nice..........

oh yeah - I think Dan smells and his panzer axled tanks cars are too heavy

[bathtub]

It seems as this has gone on that the truth is starting to come out

MONEY

MONEY

MONEY

WE cant afford to do this or that so ban it

Im thinking od doing the Lombard RAC this year but it costs to much so im off to complain about car specs so i can use my VW Transporter to get there compete & then go to work next week .But i might put some stickers on it & a safari snorkel

Come on if an event doent suit you dont do it .

Do a COR event & be everyones hero when you win

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Would you make us stick to 12V or is 24V oK if it is can we run 110V winch motors ???

Pete,

Prob here is you will have an unfair advantage.

Being a builder you'll have access to multiple and longer extension leads to the mains than most other competitors and you'll obviously have your own 240-110V transformer box, .............totally unfair

Hah.........

You've been sussed

disgracefull

Nige

[bathtub]

Pete,

Prob here is you will have an unfair advantage.

Being a builder you'll have access to multiple and longer extension leads to the mains than most other competitors and you'll obviously have your own 240-110V transformer box, .............totally unfair

Hah.........

You've been sussed

disgracefull

Nige

Almost but just got 2 No 200amp premier power Alternators with on-board 110 V

Being a dumb builder just wondering how a 110v winch would be .Plus i could fry some fish on wading sections

[Corrode Finger]

To be fair, as long as a competitor complies with the safety related requirements, and has a sound truck as outlined by the 'rules' of the organiser, then building for the future entails, someone, or many people looking at the statuatory requirements, and then bending, stretching, or being totally ingenious in their interpretation of what is not written!

If the rules do not cover hyperdrive bisciut carriers, and you can build it, buy it or think there's a benefit, then you have the right to try it, aslong as it complies with the statuatory requirements of the competition.

Thats my personal take on it.

At the end of the day, someone was the first to fit portals, if it had been a really rubbish idea, nobody else would have bothered.

That advantage of a new idea is only around for that season, cos if its good someone else will copy it!

The future has to be about, attempting new things, good or bad, cos till you try you wont know.

[dirtydiesel]

Now I' ve just got up and seen this I'll reply.

I don't have a 110 at home. I have a TD4 Freelander. So by your reckoning 40quid for a trailer, but from where. There is no one local ie within 20miles that I can find to hire a trailer and then hre a tow veh with towhitch at say 100 quid for the weekend.

Now my total for the weekend goes to 300-350. At that point I give up. That is pricing people out at grass root level which you all keep going on about.

The challenge scene is a bit like communism. We are all equal, but some are more equal than others. ie some are welcome inside the Kremlin but others just sit outside and marvel at it and eat potato soup. And I'm getting fed up with soup.

Your freelander will tow a 90" ok as long as you get a light trailer, a quick google search found these

Quite how you you can spend £300 on a one dayer i don't know, and even if it does cost you that much find a co-driver to split the costs with.

As for the communism thing, do you honestly think the soup tastes any better inside, nope theres just more stuff to marvel at.

Dan, that is total BS.

My machine is the daily driver at the moment.

Daan

I've allways found that road cars work best on the road, and conversely offroaders work best offroad

I can only imagine that you've some how compromised the offroad ability of you hybrid to enable it to be driven safely on the road.

[dirtydiesel]

oh yeah - I think Dan smells and his panzer axled tanks cars are too heavy

I do smell;

Mainly of grinding dust with a touch of ep90,

on my days off i've been experimenting with vodka and swamp to compensate.

Get kimmy and petal on the scales and we'll see who's fat, old man.

[dirtydiesel]

Back to the thread,

Paul, don't you think you'd have been better starting this thread before you bult your new car?

Or now that it's nearly finished are you worried that it's behind the times allready and your worried it won't have the staying power of piggy?

Maybe you were hopeing for us to somehow validate your thoughts and ideas behind the new car?

[FridgeFreezer]

It seems as this has gone on that the truth is starting to come out

...

WE cant afford to do this or that so ban it

Pete,

Close but not quite - There is a distinction between banning innovations (twin motor winches, hydro steer, etc.) and restricting things that just price people out of being competitive in a given class (tyre size, number of winches, standard bodywork or tube buggy, etc.). What's being suggested here are some (very loose) restrictions on a couple of simple points to stop the cost of being competitive spiraling and pricing the "grass roots" out of this sport.

Anyone could, if they had the money, buy some 52" agri tyres - that is not innovation, it's one-upmanship.

Innovation requires a bit of thought and some engineering on the part of the competitor - and they can build it themselves for little cash or pay someone else if they have the money and prefer to do it that way.

Some of the most amazing stuff we saw in Russia was built for less money than some people spend on an 8274, those guys had sat down, thought long and hard and used what they had to build a truck that would out-perform the chequebook "challenge spec" clones costing ten times as much. They had home built PTO winches that are faster than a twin-motor 24v offering or Petal's type-R hydro. That's innovation, and that is to be encouraged, because no matter how much some muppet throws money at Scorpion/Devon/Etc. to build them an "extreme" truck, the guy who shows up with something new is gonna be ahead of them.

[Guest WALFY]

Your freelander will tow a 90" ok as long as you get a light trailer, a quick google search found these

Quite how you you can spend £300 on a one dayer i don't know, and even if it does cost you that much find a co-driver to split the costs with.

As for the communism thing, do you honestly think the soup tastes any better inside, nope theres just more stuff to marvel at.

I've allways found the road cars work best on the road, and conversely offroaders work best offroad

I can only imagine that you've some how compromised the offroad ability of you hybrid to enable it to be driven safely on the road.

DD

I can't find the max towing weight of a Freelander but the max weight of a 90 is 2400kg. Plus a trailer puts it beyond the reach of a Freelander, without compromising safety on the road. As for the trailer location if that is the closest you can find to me then I have no hope. It is over 120miles away.

Ref costs

Tank fuel each way. 80

Fuel to compete 30 ish

Entry 50 ish

food/drink for w/end 40ish

Plus breakages ???????

There's 200ish.

Then to factor in the tow veh hire and trailer hire there goes another 150. But then the fuel bill there and back will be more for towing and so it escalates.

As for getting money out of the co-driver. He is a mechanic by trade so does most of my repairs for me. I get the free use of his workshop and consumables. He gives up his spare time already to sort my truck out for me. If I ask him for money as well it'd be a bit cheeky. He doesn't ask for money for his time, workshop hire or the use of his tools and consumables.

I would love to compete more but I'm not as rich or have the disposable income of some. So I have to balance challenge events with her indoors and do girly sh*t every now and again.

I don't dispute that things are cheaper where you are but down here it's not and nothing is local. I was lucky before when I lived in Kent. I had Bearmach, Island 4x4 and Delgraph ( although I'd never shop there out of principle) all within 10 miles of my house. Now I have to travel to Swindon to get bits. Or get it posted.

This is not a dig at you but a reality check for those of you that have all the facilitys you require on your doorstep. If I want to work in a garage with electric I have to travel to my co-drivers house which is a 2-3 hr drive away.

[dollythelw]

Get kimmy and petal on the scales and we'll see who's fat, old man.

I cant - you broke them... and then welded the pieces to your car.

Im only 24........ just a lot of miles on the clock....

Some of the most amazing stuff we saw in Russia was built for less money than some people spend on an 8274, those guys had sat down, thought long and hard and used what they had to build a truck that would out-perform the chequebook "challenge spec" clones costing ten times as much.

and they do it every year..

They had home built PTO winches that are faster than a twin-motor 24v offering or Petal's type-R hydro

these guys never seem to dismiss new ideas as carp either - everyones interested in each others trucks and positive about trying new things, the diversity is incredible and "technical spying" is encouraged to the extent that offering spies coffee/vodka/food/something to lie on while they crawl on/over/under the truck is completely normal. The main question people ask is "does it work well?"

[Raumer]

Very interesting thread.

In some areas of motorsport the costs have risen when the rules have been tightened too far. Innovation can cost a lot less in terms of money, although more time, and isn't guaranteed to work. More innovation on vehicles can mean that they are less reliable until the bugs are found and fixed. New ideas and radical thinking need to be encouraged and so far that seems to be pointing at a category that has only the basic safety limitations and a few boundaries.

There still needs to be a succession of categories to allow anybody to come out and play and work their way up. If I start to take my landie out (when it's eventually finished, well started first! ) then I will want a simple and relatively easy category where I can learn the basics and get some confidence. I wouldn't want to be up against some of the exceptionally good machines and drivers I've seen on here. Although I'd still like to be able to see them at the same event so I can learn and encourage everybody to improve and progress. As an engineer I am fascinated to see the modifications being done and what these vehicles can achieve.

Ed

[sheeppimp]

Does it matter whether a truck is trailered or not? - personal choice. I've driven to RTV's, competed and driven home. Equally mates have driven, played and then been trailered cos something broke. Others trailer there and back and don't care if it breaks. Maybe it affects their driving style I don't know.

Both could be catered for in the same event as HH suggested classes and courses as applicable. It's managed in trialing so why not in challenges?

Requiring road legality is a minefield as it relies on individual interpretations and even within this forum there are a number of these. What about logbooking to confirm safety a la ALRC?

Alternatively and to really stifle innovation why not a "blueprinted" series - everyone competes in the same truck e.g. 90tdi on 35" simex with one winch. That should really sort the skilled teams from the rest.

Otherwise I really think that the only way forward is a simple class system including "standard,modified and what the f#ck???"

[protoprincess]

I really like the classification system the eastern Europeans and Nordic countries use - TR1, TR2, TR3, and Proto for off road competitions.

Each Class is allowed to be just a little bit more advanced then the previous class with restrictions on the size of the tires, number of winches, lockers and body modifications. Engine change in a small class puts you in to the more advanced class. Larger tyres in small class again put you in the more advanced group

Seems to work well.

Specific competitions then off course have their own rules - Formula off road, Comp Safari......

Trailering to the events?

The older I get the more comfort I require ...

Not forgetting the acquisition of a little elephant called Lennox that’s seems to be hanging around us lately

Zuz

[Mark90]

Alternatively and to really stifle innovation why not a "blueprinted" series - everyone competes in the same truck e.g. 90tdi on 35" simex with one winch. That should really sort the skilled teams from the rest.

I don't think it is the way forward for the sport, but it would be an interesting exercise to see who the top 'drivers' really are.

[white90]

I'm sure the solicitor acting on behalf of the bus-shelter full of flatened people.....may view things a little different.

Anyone want to buy a nice tow-truck - just to make sure.....

No difference from me damaging the car anywhere and making a field repair to get home.

this country is turning into a blame cultured one, not the one I grew up in.

And Walfy the 110 comment was to me not you

that's your complex at work again See I told you you had one

[Mo Murphy]

I don't think it is the way forward for the sport, but it would be an interesting exercise to see who the top 'drivers' really are.

I think there would be some very disappointed big spenders

Mo

[dirtydiesel]

Alternatively and to really stifle innovation why not a "blueprinted" series - everyone competes in the same truck e.g. 90tdi on 35" simex with one winch. That should really sort the skilled teams from the rest.

Probably quite the opposite would happen as someone with deep pockets would be able to turn oup on new simex every event throw an infinate amount of money at the one winch.

The same type of system has been applied to some of the one make circuit racing series with devastating results for the budget teams.

[pugwash]

I think there would be some very disappointed big spenders

Mo

nahh you just spend more refining the standard parts- it happens in every one make series that doesn't have sealed parts (ie sealed for race engines and gearboxes). When you think that you can spend £100 on a knackered 3.5 RV8 or £8grand on a fully race honed DJE engine, both of which would meet single class approval then you'll see what i mean.

There really haven't been anty cogniscant reasons on here for not allowing a free for all limited by class size only. As with all things money is irrelevant- either someone spends a very long tmie developing new effective oily bits, or you pay someone to do it for you- that just depends of your personal time/money equation. There is no way of stopping people trying to be competitive.

What we want to do is fly in the face of recent UK history and actually remove regulations- just have enough that people are safe, but take responsibility for their own trucks and actions. MOT and SVA would seem to be a good starting point!

all other mods should be free- whether you want to build a monster truck or a super light floaty truck that never gets bogged down.