Easier style Challenges

[JST]

I am putting together dates for next year and was just thinking of running an event every 3rd or quarter for the more standard style vehicles. there would still be 40 punches, but no special stages. the aim of the day being for guys with near standard vehicles to get out and have fun without being 'outgunned'

by standard size i mean:

Tyres no bigger than 235/85 or 7.50R16

Original vehicle profile (OK a hardtop with a cage is fine)

No aids to traction ie no winch. (centre diff lock ok)

there would be a modified class which would be

tyres bigger than 235/85 ie 255/85 MTs

one winch allowed or one locker allowed.

I am also thinking NO SIMEX or equivalent and no tyres bigger than 33".

Possible compulsory lunch stop as well which would be even better if the funcky chip monkey could provide.....

What do the panel think, would people want something like this? ideas/suggestions of what you would want?

[Bowie69]

This would be VERY interesting.......

Out of interest, where abouts is the Wellington site?

[bishbosh]

I think that the emphasis needs to be more on the atmosphere being less "competitive" and more "fun" (not that the two are mutually exclusive).

This can be helped by having easier punches, but things like compulsory lunch breaks and special stages that don't necessarily involve driving (like at your J33P event) but do require teamwork, maybe from more than one vehicle would make the whole event less of a competition.

As well as recognising the "best" gatherers of punches you could also have prizes for things like muddiest truck or worst stuck or Darwin Award or such like.

What about pairing experienced and tricked up vehicles with novices so a bit of learning can be had?

Not sure a different class system is required, I think it is more to do with how the day feels to the novice.

My 2p.

[Ben_J85JTY]

Sounds like an awesome Idea.

I have been meaning to get out and have a go at competing for a while now, but even the "novice" challenges look like a fairly daunghting experiance.

What about with a tyre size max of 265/75's as that seems to be a fairly popular size?

Still, would be interest if it does come off.

Cheers

Ben

[Bowie69]

I'd expect the tyre size is down to rolling diameter, not width, and as 265/75 is SLIGHTLY smaller than 235/85 I reckon you will be OK, but let the JST confirm

[FridgeFreezer]

A good call IMHO, the limiting factor with many challenges seems to be that those willing to do the most damage have an advantage. Whether that is because they have deep pockets, lots of time / spares, a big workshop or whatever - it puts at at disadvantage those who do not have the time/money/resources/inclination to beat their trucks to sh*t every weekend.

Max 7.50's or 235/85 seems sensible as this is a standard (& hence cheap) tyre size everyone can run without blowing bits every 5 minutes.

One winch per team keeps things relatively low-rent.

No difflocks - agree, but suppose you've got a locker in an otherwise standard vehicle, would you be allowed to enter and how would non-usage of locker be ensured/policed?

If I put 7.50's on the 109 can I enter? Hell, if I put 205's on can I enter?

On a different tack, since IMHO the problem is the damage factor - how about a points system to encourage more level competition:

- Getting a punch without using a winch scores higher than if you use it

- If you break something you have to get yourself back to the pits to repair it, and every visit incurs a penalty

- Clipping trees / canes incurs a penalty

- Big damage (EG rollover) and you're out.

Also, giving plenty of time to do everything so it remains a challenge and not a race would be a good step.

[Turbocharger]

I agree. The last time I went out to a challenge I came back with two borderline road-legal front wings, a stoved in back end and a partial sense of humour failure, all on my everyday truck. The challenge seemed to be set up to thread between trees, hit a few and then try to grab a punch without sliding sideways into another tree.

I’m just like everyone else, I’d like to see a class system which puts my car at the top end so I can win (or just not come last…). My 2p says that your ‘standard’ and ‘modified’ classes above are about right, and I’d like to think policing the gap between the two (ie having a locker but not using it) should be self-enforcing – who wants to win the standard class by cheating?

[JST]

Some interesting feedback so far, thank you. to take each point raised and some of my thoughts; note i am not agreeing or disagreeing with the points just looking for further expansion.

Out of interest, where abouts is the Wellington site?

Wellington, Somerset, near Taunton, but who mentioned Wellington.......

1. I think that the emphasis needs to be more on the atmosphere being less "competitive" and more "fun" (not that the two are mutually exclusive).

2. This can be helped by having easier punches, but things like compulsory lunch breaks and special stages that don't necessarily involve driving (like at your J33P event) but do require teamwork, maybe from more than one vehicle would make the whole event less of a competition.

3. As well as recognising the "best" gatherers of punches you could also have prizes for things like muddiest truck or worst stuck or Darwin Award or such like.

4. What about pairing experienced and tricked up vehicles with novices so a bit of learning can be had?

5, Not sure a different class system is required, I think it is more to do with how the day feels to the novice.

My 2p.

1. agreed although its difficult to make an atmosphere... It would certainly be advertised as a fun challenge and prizes wouldn't necessarily go to the most gathered punches.

2 . lunch breaks etc, agreed. SS not too sure as they require lots of thought!!! but more realistic problem is finding someone to Marshall them for the whole day - a thankless task!

3. as 1

4. Pairing - good idea in principle although you coudl encourage the 'let me trash your truck' as mine did it approach and some people you really woudn't want to learn off.

5. Classes - agreed - unsure.

Sounds like an awesome Idea.

I have been meaning to get out and have a go at competing for a while now, but even the "novice" challenges look like a fairly daunghting experiance.

What about with a tyre size max of 265/75's as that seems to be a fairly popular size?

Still, would be interest if it does come off.

Cheers

Ben

I'd expect the tyre size is down to rolling diameter, not width, and as 265/75 is SLIGHTLY smaller than 235/85 I reckon you will be OK, but let the JST confirm

Ben as Bowie said ^^ my thoughts were on diameter rather than width woudl probably go 31" std and 33" modified if 2 classes were running.

1. One winch per team keeps things relatively low-rent.

2. No difflocks - agree, but suppose you've got a locker in an otherwise standard vehicle, would you be allowed to enter and how would non-usage of locker be ensured/policed?

3. If I put 7.50's on the 109 can I enter? Hell, if I put 205's on can I enter?

4. On a different tack, since IMHO the problem is the damage factor - how about a points system to encourage more level competition:

- Getting a punch without using a winch scores higher than if you use it

- If you break something you have to get yourself back to the pits to repair it, and every visit incurs a penalty

- Clipping trees / canes incurs a penalty

- Big damage (EG rollover) and you're out.

5. Also, giving plenty of time to do everything so it remains a challenge and not a race would be a good step.

FF

1. team with a winched rather than full on mod could work but again do you choose your team member or get given one, what if you dotn get on with them, or them with you, what if you can't find one?

2. if you have a locker (axle wise) then its an aid to traction so i would put you up a class. if is was a manually operated one you could disable it (ie removed solenoid block on an ARB) to remain in std class.

3. Yes and Yes

4. good ideas although they all require marshals to ensure they are adhered to. marshalls can be a problem sometimes i have 2 sometimes 5 and vehicles nos can be upto 20. for those you would really need a marshal with each vehicle/team. in addition each marshall would need to take exactly the same approach to ensure all teams/vehicles had a fair crack at it.

5. I think timing is upto the team/vehicle as i currently give 0930 until 1600hrs i wouldn't want to hang around there any longer than that!

I agree. The last time I went out to a challenge I came back with two borderline road-legal front wings, a stoved in back end and a partial sense of humour failure, all on my everyday truck.

I’m just like everyone else, I’d like to see a class system which puts my car at the top end so I can win (or just not come last…). My 2p says that your ‘standard’ and ‘modified’ classes above are about right, and I’d like to think policing the gap between the two (ie having a locker but not using it) should be self-enforcing – who wants to win the standard class by cheating?

1. Wing bars and off roading lessons.... Sorry just taking the p*ss, i know exactly what you mean and where you are coming from, hence the idea.

2. I agree, you would like to think policing would be self generated although in the heat of it some people may forget they shouldnt be using it and some will do anything anyway! So we think classes are a good idea?

Lastly

How many of these comps would people expect/want/like to do over a 12mth period?

Do we think classes are good

Do you want SS?

and who would come and watch the first one and who would come and enter?

[Jon White]

My 2p worth would be:-

Standard class:-

Max tyre size 7.50x 16 or 235/85

No lockers

Single winch (alot of otherwise standard vehicles have winches these days)

Modified class:-

Max tyre size 33" with nothing more agressive than a mud terrain allowed

Lockers allowed

Multiple winches allowed

No tray backs etc allowed, no space framed (or largely spaceframed) bodies, no simex, no portals, no orange extreme suspension etc.

If you dont allow at least a single winch in standard class IMHO all you'll end up with is people hopelessly stuck all day long.

The trouble with disallowing lockers is what do you do with for people with say a detroit installed? There is no easy way to disable it, plus we tried banning lockers on some of the early HBRO challenges, and if you had them fitted you had to promise not to use them. It turned out to be unenforcable.

Equally limited to a single winch is foolish IMHO. I've had it before where I've wrecked the side of my vehicle, because I'm not allowed to hook the rear winch on to pull the arse end accross 12" and so away from the nearby tree.

Whoops - clicked post too quickly.....

I'd be well up for something like this. I always liked the challenge that Paul Whiteman used to organise, as it had a fun atmoshere and wasnt too extreme, although the single winch per team bit annoyed me (as above). However I think there is a need now for a "lower level" of challenge with the emphasis being on it being non-damaging.

Jon

[Bowie69]

Wellington, Somerset, near Taunton, but who mentioned Wellington.......

No-one, was just browsing your website and spotted it! I know exactly where Wellington is, I'm onyl about 30 mins away, just had never spotted it before

How many of these comps would people expect/want/like to do over a 12mth period?

Quarterly would be great, although if numbers got too much, 6 a year maybe?

Classes are good, but I wouldn't want to comment on what is/isn't allowed

[Mark90]

I agree with Jon that the challenges that Paul organised at Slindon in the past where good fun entry level events. The one winch per team rule enabled me to do my first couple of challenges before I even had a winch, I think it's a good way to encourage people into the sport and it really makes you think about how to approach things, like not having/using a rear winch does.

James I think it is a good idea to have some events pitched at the sort of level you are talking about. Classes wise, as mentioned it's difficult to police lockers, but the idea of a no winch class has merit I think as does the team thing.

SS, personally I like them, gives something a bit different to hunting the punch all day. Could be a taped off 'route' with a couple of punches to collect along the way and a set time to complete it in, or maybe something a bit more inventive. But agreed marshalling SS is an issue though.

Number of events? We're not talking about hard core winch challenge competitors so one a month is probably too much. Two or three a per year might be more appropriate.

These events sound like something I'd like to do in my single winch standard 90 (assuming I don't sell it ), however due to my current commitments/plans for next year I'm not able to say if I'd be in a position to enter.

[JST]

Equally limited to a single winch is foolish IMHO. I've had it before where I've wrecked the side of my vehicle, because I'm not allowed to hook the rear winch on to pull the arse end accross 12" and so away from the nearby tree.

Jon, does that mean for Modified class pretty much anything goes within the limitations below it. ie a 3 winch, dual steer, twin lockers, 33" MT shod vehicle would be OK? as i reckon that would put the other more standard vehicles off.

ref above, if you weren't use to using/having a rear winch you probably would have approached the way you did, or if that was the only approach then given it a miss maybe?

I think a bit where you can be recovered by other teams (where the other team get a bonus for helping out) or recovered by a marshall and you then loose the points for that punch could be incorporated.

[FridgeFreezer]

No tray backs etc allowed, no space framed (or largely spaceframed) bodies, no simex, no portals, no orange extreme suspension etc.

So you're saying standard bodywork, standard silhouette sort of thing?

If you dont allow at least a single winch in standard class IMHO all you'll end up with is people hopelessly stuck all day long.

Amen to that.

Equally limited to a single winch is foolish IMHO. I've had it before where I've wrecked the side of my vehicle, because I'm not allowed to hook the rear winch on to pull the arse end across 12" and so away from the nearby tree.

Hopefully that problem wouldn't arise in a properly set-out "easy" challenge unless you cocked it up, and then I'd hope a marshal would help get you out. One winch per team I would say is the sort of level to be aiming at, with a bit of thought two vehicles and a winch can do a fair bit.

If you've got a rear winch I would expect it to be cable-tied round the rope so it can't be used, in a situation as you describe you'd be able to use it to get out but forfeit the points for that punch.

[bishbosh]

If you need help from a Marshall or anyone elese I don't think you should be penalised for asking. It will only make people try a bit more and probably end up in more trouble.

If you get recovered I think you should still be able to attempt the punch again. If you have already got the punch then you have to do it again maybe?

[smo]

Sounds like as great idea, id love to play in the d-lander when its finished but er, with lockers, twin winches and 37" tyres i guess im not allowed!

[JST]

If you need help from a Marshall or anyone elese I don't think you should be penalised for asking. It will only make people try a bit more and probably end up in more trouble.

If you get recovered I think you should still be able to attempt the punch again. If you have already got the punch then you have to do it again maybe?

agreed not penalised but if recovered by a Marshall you just don't get the points for that one punch you were recovered off as you didn't get it or get out without help from outside the sphere of competitors. if you want to have a go again then crack on, just make sure someone is there to help out.

Sounds like as great idea, id love to play in the d-lander when its finished but er, with lockers, twin winches and 37" tyres i guess im not allowed!

Correct, but nothing to stop you entering one of my normal comps.

[smo]

Correct, but nothing to stop you entering one of my normal comps.

Problem with that is ive not done much comp stuff in the past, i was getting into it then wrote off my 90, so a bit rusty to say the least!

[Lewis]

Sounds like as great idea, id love to play in the d-lander when its finished but er, with lockers, twin winches and 37" tyres i guess im not allowed!

Ditto, I'd love to enter a JST event having heard and read great things, however myself and whoever I could get to co-drive would be green, with little to no event experience.

But I've shot myself in the foot with 3 winches, lockers and 38's, not to mention the slightly diffrent profile.

Any chance of an intermediate type event that could incorporate the fun only nature of this event but without all the restrictions? Or even an exception to enter a novice event and have no score?

[bishbosh]

Lewis and Smo,

Just enter the event - plenty of novices have cut their teeth at James' events in the past and I guarantee you will enjoy it regardless of where (or if!!) you finish.

[V8CAMEL]

Lewis and Smo,

Just enter the event - plenty of novices have cut their teeth at James' events in the past and I guarantee you will enjoy it regardless of where (or if!!) you finish.

i think tyre size only ie not over 33" rather than not simex after all how many people have 32 inch simex what a silly thought and one winch would be fine .

looks like the series is coming out to play

[Orgasmic Farmer]

What Bish Said Lewis. James events are famour for being extremely good natured and fun with many people quite prepared to sacrifice any chance of a vistory to stop and help someone stuck. We always exchange notes with others as to where punches are. A lunch stop means that you get to exchange stories of the day so far and it means that no-one gets uber-competitive. There are also a good spread of punches from easily driven to extremes ones where 3 winches would be a distinct advantage. So knowing that you have been to some of the AWDC events I reckon you would really enjoy one of James full-on challenges.

Anyway back on topic. I reckon its a good idea James. One up from green laning and pay and play type days but at the same time doable without having to modify the daily driver and a chance to see if it might be worth going on in the sport. Sort of like an "RTV challenge"

[pugwash]

James,

This isn't really a series for standard vehicles though is it? it's a series for unmodified land rovers (and SJ's, Vits and the like), and as such is a little exclusive, and not in the spirit of what you are trying to achieve i wouldn't have thought.

using your rules, my entirely standard land cruiser would be unable to enter even though it has precisely no modifications (apart from a broken rear light lense).

If you are going to make a standard class shouldn't it be open to all vehicles which have been unmodified from standard- ie a g-wagon should be able to run in this class even though it has lockers? you shouldn't selectively decide what are "good" mods and what are "bad" mods. What i mean by this is that you don't give a weight penalty against Sjs (even though they have a very siginificant advantage from weighing less than a gnats fart)- you have decided that weight is an Allowable mod- how is this fair? Do i get an extra benefit from my land cruiser for it weighing 3 times as much?

People should be allowed to run whatever vehicles they want with all those vehicles pros and cons- the benefits to a land cruisers of having lockers front and rear are seriously overshadowed by it's very poor angles and ridiculous weight. Please don't decide which vehicles you prefer to see compete!

what should happen is that you have a standard production class where you can have tyres being +3" over factory standard and suspension with no more than a 3" lift-that's it apart you can add protection to the underside of the vehicle as well as recovery points. No mods to drive train or silhouette (from either side of front) and no mods significant mods to interior!

[darthdicky]

Like the idea James, I'd like to see more of this kind of competition, not that I'll be able to enter any for quite a while. I really enjoyed a couple of Paul Wightman and V8Camels challenges a while back, and the 7 Sisters style punch ones - the sort where you don't need a trayback just to get to half the punches, but a couple take some thought and you feel like you've achieved something at the end of the day. There has to be some skill and difficulty otherwise everyone will finish in an hour or two.

Classes are good as they make people who haven't done it before feel able to compete against those who have a bit more experience.

Teams with one winch are good, but it does mean someone without a winch (or a mate with one) gets chucked in with someone they don't know, can be good, can be a disaster!

Special stages can be fun, not sure that against the clock race style is quite right for this kind of event though - maybe blindfolded driving/guiding (loose points for knocking a cone/stick), using a winch to get a bucket of water from one place to another (loose points for spilling water? Maybe use a marshalls truck for that as it gives a level playing field, enables people without winches to have a go too?). Orienteering style challenges can be good here too, follow compass bearings etc.

Those with huge tyres, lockers etc. but little experience are probably missing the point of this perhaps? James's normal events are probably more suitable - you'll be with more similarly specced vehicles and get a better idea of what is possible (even if you don't want to attempt some of them)

Just my few thoughts...

Richard

PS. Jim, isn't that just picking holes in "general" rules? Chances are you'd be the only person with a LandCruiser who would want to compete, the rules above cover 95% of potential applicants! If you get into the 3" over standard tyre rules then that takes 90's up to 35" which I don't think is the idea. I'm sure James would make exceptions to allow you to join in, even if you had to leave the lockers out?

[pugwash]

Jim, isn't that just picking holes in "general" rules? Chances are you'd be the only person with a LandCruiser who would want to compete, the rules above cover 95% of potential applicants! If you get into the 3" over standard tyre rules then that takes 90's up to 35" which I don't think is the idea. I'm sure James would make exceptions to allow you to join in, even if you had to leave the lockers out?

I know what you are saying, but my point is that the classes should be based on standard production vehicles, not classes based on an "ideal" vehicle- which in this case seems to be a 90 with one winch. If you are going to have easier non damaging trials then they should be inclusive and draw people into the sport; I have come across quite a few land cruiser owners aldready who would like to play hard off road but only get to do expeditions and pay and plays as their vehicles don't meet regs. It's not just land cruisers either, what about new range rovers, G-wagons, etc etc.; Owners of these vehicles won't come and play becuase of the restrictive regs.

i don't think there is anything wrong with a 90 with 35" tyres- if people want to slap them on and then start destroying their drive train then that's up to them. Eevn if you limit the tyre size increase to +2" then that would at least give a level playing field!

it's not fair to ask James to make exceptions to the rules either- even on a vehicle which is non points scoring- it will only engender bad feelings at the competitions!

[bishbosh]

I know what you are saying, but my point is that the classes should be based on standard production vehicles,

Sorry Jim,

Fundamentally disagree with that statement. Does standard production mean standard tyres too? That'd make for an interesting event!

IMHO James has it right by defining classes on driving aids. It is rubbish to put a lockered up G wagen or cruiser in a standard class alongside a 90/110/RR/Disco because that's how they came out of the factory. How would you feel as a novice turning up to the event in your pride and joy Disco / Frontera / whatever with a nice shiny winch on the front to find you're in the same class as a cruiser or G wagen with a winch and axle lockers? I think you would find that most people woud turn around and go home.