Hybrid_From_Hell Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 <Sigh> Ho Bl**y Hum........... Those who remember, I made this for the rear PTO Driven MileMarker on my 90 : HUGELY strong (or so I thought), and many took the P**s as the the thickness / overenginering of it. When fitted all in place and sorted out the finsihed unit looked like this : I have have used it a lot, all very nice immensely fast and erm....immensely powerful....this I have now proven to myself without any doubt remaining. Got meself stuck big time couple of weekends ago, really really really stuck, hugely Big-timey stuck, ..........so out with said Rear winch. With PTO power, the Simex were forced against the rim, tress moved, hydarulics groaned and NOTHING... So, I increased to FULL POWER the winch groaned something else groaned and creaked, the 90 was still stuck fast, and the there was an almighty bang, ......even though I hadn't moved the tree flexed back upright by several feet.... ................Yep, I had broken my brand new 12mm plasma ! Well, I had been thinking "maybe these plasmas 'aint up to it, I mean the winch didn't even stall" ?? No, it didn't, and using the front even bigger HD PTO Driven hydraulic winch with 14mm plasma I finally got myself out, with big bowwave of mud and goo, more trees moving and creaking....and an even bigger audience cheering........... Tonight I went to re-splice the plasma back together with its "detached" Hook.... 1. I now know why there was such a almighty bang when it went 2. I did NOT over - engineer the mounting 3. My welding is good, nicely penetrating etc 4. Plasmas do break, but not as easily as I 1st thouight 5. I do need to make the mounting even heavier Duty : The rear winch has actualy TORN through 6mm plate, and sheared 12.8 allen bolts into the casing, twisting the entire unit about 3 inches out of alighment, and pulled the plate apart lifting it around 1.5 inches, brackets of 8mm gussets are bent etc etc etc Ooops !. The front plate 6 / 8mm is bent all over the shop, its pushed hard into and buckled the rear crossmember . Wondering what the innards of the winch are going to be like Coo eeee, some "repairs now needed" Bugger, thats going to put my other plans back a while PTO Hyraulics, Mmmmmmmmmmmmm some serious pulling power Oh, and Moglite, just hang on while I beef it up, I do want so much to have a go at breaking with your load cell Shows the forces involved, .............also shows the huge safety benefit of plasma ! Bugger ! Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Nige isn't there a saftey on the winch? pop off valve or similar must have been huge forces to do that sort of damage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 That is scarey..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Hell Nige, don't do things by half do you, good to know you are OK, good job the mount was over engineeered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 bit of 20mm plate from a shipwreck next for a mount I guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted March 30, 2006 Author Share Posted March 30, 2006 Nige isn't there a saftey on the winch? pop off valve or similar must have been huge forces to do that sort of damage Erm, Yes The pressure Releif Valve is set at a staggering 2300 PSI, I could hear the valve opening a tad so had reached full pressure just as it all let go, also has a dual overcentre value should pipe let go etc The motor (MM USA) has a safe limit of 1800 PSI, over this long usage carries a big risk of the seals blowing apart, MM USA (Very helpful) said that 2300psi was top end limit and its was down to me, the winch would take it but the motor seals might not... So, yes and yes, there is a safety system on it, and yes the forces involved were HUGE ! Nige PS Seals are ok , just the rest of it thats not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 just shows the power of hydraulics... and still the electric winch brigade laugh.... can't imagine an X9 or husky pulling itself apart like that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthdicky Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 7/10 Could try harder. I mean it was still working and there's not bits of metal on the floor yet Thats properly buggered I look forward to seeing the next incarnation of the mount - might need to rethink the rear spring rates though Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 just shows the power of hydraulics... and still the electric winch brigade laugh.... can't imagine an X9 or husky pulling itself apart like that... you say that like it is a plus point being able to destroy itself/mount/plasma I would think that is a bit of a disadvantage personally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted March 30, 2006 Author Share Posted March 30, 2006 The gas boards digging up the road outside my house at the mo, 20mm plate lying about everywhere , Nah, too thin 1st I'll get it all off, then see whats what, but have been out drawing "Mounting 2", mate just popped over for me to weld up some brackets - his eyes came out on storks ! Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Nige what was the 90 stuck against out of intrest? I thought the uprights on your mount were meant to lean on the rear x-member? Mine sits on a flat bed mounting plate and there's a small gap to the cross member, I'm thinking I may fill this gap to transfer the loads onto the cross member itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Yeeks Hydraulic power [insane cackle] Now I am worried as my whole winch mount is only 6mm................. I have yet to find anything that presented any risk of stalling my MM in low range - you can tell on mine when it is about to stall (in high range) because the serpentine belt starts to twitter shortly before the valve opens on the pump. I guess if you are using the standard motor you could hazard a guess at the loads involved if the PRV was at 2300psi:- Std MM with ZF pump which I believe pushes out 1750psi pulls 10500lb if you believe the specs So 2300/1750 x 10500 = 13800lb! Which is interesting as 10mm Dyneema is "supposed" to be breaking strain of somewhere around 20,000lb and 12mm should be a hell of a lot more than that......... Has it cracked the motor/gearbox casing or is it just twisted one side to the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted March 30, 2006 Author Share Posted March 30, 2006 Stuck in a huge hole, filled with very heavy mud (sort of sand / mud / water & Mix with 60 tones of tank doing a spin or 5). then water on top. Nose was down, basically bonnet level with mud, rear up in the air, crossmember jammed into earth bank, rear wheels hanging into mud, no idea if "Hooked" up on anything, but took some shifting front wise too !. Could have been hooked up on root stump etc, or just the stucktion plus angle of pulling ? Either way I am stunned and shocked I did NOT expect to see what I saw, I even had got the hook and timble ready to resplice Yes the uprights were made to sit flush with rear cross member - its pushed all that in by the look of it ... I'm recovery marshal at an event this weekend, front winch only now ! After that I'll pull everything and strip MM too, see if blown inside, may even try to power out and see if it all still moves Ho Hum !...Oh and the plasmas added a nice "Rope shaped" long dent in the rear door - image wire plasma definately for me from now on, Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Yeeks Hydraulic power [insane cackle] Now I am worried as my whole winch mount is only 6mm................. I have yet to find anything that presented any risk of stalling my MM in low range - you can tell on mine when it is about to stall (in high range) because the serpentine belt starts to twitter shortly before the valve opens on the pump. I guess if you are using the standard motor you could hazard a guess at the loads involved if the PRV was at 2300psi:- Std MM with ZF pump which I believe pushes out 1750psi pulls 10500lb if you believe the specs So 2300/1750 x 10500 = 13800lb! Which is interesting as 10mm Dyneema is "supposed" to be breaking strain of somewhere around 20,000lb and 12mm should be a hell of a lot more than that......... Has it cracked the motor/gearbox casing or is it just twisted one side to the other? out of interest what punch were you stuck at nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Size of metal apart do you think it would have faired better if you'd run the rope off the bottom rather than top of drum and letterboxed the crossmember? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Nige, 2300psi is a 43.7% hike ………… some fundamental calcs would put the winch ‘pull’ at 8.1909 …. Ok 8 Tons ………… are you really surprised the mount broke ? ………… looks a right fecking mess …………. you just cant be trusted. You say the mounting bolts sheared ……….. has the alloy casing broken /cracked on the winch mounting feet ? coz I would have thought the shear stress of those bolts was quite high……… Just for the disbelievers I know of another MM that has torn the dumb irons off at the winch mount anchor points (bumper bolts) …….. this one was also PTO pump powered and is reasonably fast……… I have a large (3ft x 1ft) 20mm plate if you want it ………. I am ‘up your way’ next week. Edited to add ........ IIRC nigels winch is the 12000lbs model with the 18.5CI motor .......... even if it is the 10500 model, its still a 7 ton pull (ok 6.735) Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJL Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Stalled my MMH12 A few times most notably at Xmas when got it stuck in low box also stalled double lining through two snatch blocks didnt stall though on the 3rd block but did almost take the gearbox cross member clean off! (Didnt See The Stump It Was Stuck On!! Must have been a fair old force to do that. I couldnt see though as was taking cover incase wire rope snapped! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted March 30, 2006 Author Share Posted March 30, 2006 Have been out and had a long look and study. Yep Ians about right I did some calcs and came up with 8 tons pull and thought "GULP" Trevs point about the rope and letterboxing the crossmember is a fair one, I thinbk what may have happened here is that what started as a small amount of movement was enough to then trigger off a bigger one, then it all let go. The 6mm mounting is sheared away and looks like "Torn" as you would if you ripped some thick cardboard - now thats truw hydraulic winch force !. The trick is going to be making it stronger, I don't think the metal thickness was really the issue here, I was also pulling a quite an angle, and thats what got me thinking ... What I will prob do is make the front wider, a fold on the top, more gussets and more triangulation, so massive side pulls are no worse than straight ones, I think it was a combo of the sheer (no pun intended ) power, and the angle that caused the whole unit try to twist and then let go and circa 8 tons is one hell of a force !.................. Time to shortly fire up Mr Oxy acet and plasma methinks. I still like the mountings, without chopping the crossmember, and with the air clutch I can operate it with the door closed and from the drivers seat, so Plan B it will be, same mounting just heftier B) Hey Ho, Still "Thinking" about the forces involved ! Nige Note : No underpants were ruined from this event, .......................... ................................................................................ ...........................they nearly were tho when I saw it tonight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MogLite Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 Hell Fire !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 I'd be really interested to see the deformed assembly once you've got it on the bench. From your description of the pull it sounds like a torsional failure. When you redesign, I think you've hit the nail on the head when you said " a fold on the top" - this kind of detail will bring you far more strength without going to stupidly thick plate and the problems that brings with it. Glad to hear your bloomers are still intact. didn't fancy that mind picture!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bush65 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 It looks to me, that you are pulling from the top of the drum. IMHO, the design of your cradle is far from best in this situation because of the moment load. I would try to change the cradle design, to accomodate/reduce the moment load, rather than re-doing the same from heavier plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 I'd go with bush on this one. As you've already bent the rear x-member why not put a letterbox in it. You'll hugely reduce the moment on the cradle. I'd put money on that for the cause of failier. Put it this way, my 'paper thin' 5mm rear winch setup has stalled a Husky with a 4.6hp motor pulling a dead, waterfilled camel 110 up a 45 - 50 degree bank and I've had no deformation. I just wish I'd seen it when I was there last night. Impressive in a very scarey way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted March 31, 2006 Author Share Posted March 31, 2006 I'd go with bush on this one. As you've already bent the rear x-member why not put a letterbox in it. You'll hugely reduce the moment on the cradle. I'd put money on that for the cause of failier. Put it this way, my 'paper thin' 5mm rear winch setup has stalled a Husky with a 4.6hp motor pulling a dead, waterfilled camel 110 up a 45 - 50 degree bank and I've had no deformation. I just wish I'd seen it when I was there last night. Impressive in a very scarey way.... At least my weldings ok Mr W Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 At least my weldings ok Mr W Nige Are you sure the failer wasn't down to dodgy welding and fabrication [tin hat in the ON position and running for cover] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon White Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 'kin ruffarse! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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