Retroanaconda Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Hello all, I'd like to query your collective brains on an issue I'm currently trying to decipher. In intend to purchase a winch sometime in the new year, will be my first, and I am trying to decide whether to buy an electric system or to go for a hydraulic one. The hydraulic system appeals to me as I like the idea of clean, quiet, efficient power, and I like to over-spec things where I can. Having seen them in action at various playdays I've somewhat fallen in love with the technology. Money is as ever a factor (wrong side of £1,500 for a MM setup ), but I can just spend longer saving up if necessary. What I would like to know is, is there any reason why a first-timer like myself should stray away from a hydraulic system like the Milemarkers? Are they harder to use, more dangerous? I am a strong believer in the buy right, buy once philosophy, and I would like to start entering some challenge events in the next year or two. So as I say above, my question is really whether a hydro setup is suitable for a first-timer, rather than which is better hydro or leccy. All advice welcome Many thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 yes they are stupidly slow unless you buy the Type R with associated decent pump. offroad events just look and see how many people use them. if you really want one look for a second hand example and save £££ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 Thanks for the reply Tony. Speed isn't a major issue for me, it's more for self-recovery (to begin with at least) than competitive winching. I saw at least four at Hogmoor yesterday, got pulled out by two Second hand ones are always an option. If one is available at the right time and for the right price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 depending on your setup / how stuck you are, you can recover yourself with a stopped engine with an electric winch (if you've enough batteries) with a hyraulic, no engine = no winch. So if forexample you drown it in a river, you might well be able to get to dry land and set about pulling the plugs, but not if you've got hydraulic... Says he, currently building a Hydrualic winch for his 109... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 A Hydro Winch (as per the ones that pulled you yesterday) are Big Bucks / PTO Driven. Apart from being expensive (you can get a lot of electric winch for a fraction of the PTO Hydro Set ups) drive assist (driving whilst winching) is also a no no unless you go crank drievn pump etc, which is also big bucks. Peronally IMHO you need to spend time with an electric 1st and see if it will do what you want, my advice FWIW is do a search on this forum, read up, and chosse, if you can afford it buy a second hand 8274, why ? they are "Upgradeable" and if you ever come to sell it you'll get your money back, plus they are one if not the finest electric winch ever built, next time you see me pop over and chat about hydro set ups, I have a PTO diven MM on the rear, and a "Hydro Thing" on the front Hyrdro is expensive, issues poss with drive assist, complex to fit, but will pull more than nearly any electric set up you care to consider other than the truly wildy exotic electrics and they to are big £££££s 8274 second hand - if you can find one - then give it a year or 2 and see what your itching for then HTH Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 Mmm, you do speak sense Nige. I will have to have a big think. I have a habit of buying 'the best' (or at least what I percieve to be the best) all the time, possibly foolishly. I spent £800 on a water-cooling system for my PC...a £400 system would have done it, but it wouldn't have been all nice CNC'd aluminium parts and electronically controlled.I'm not against electric winches per se, it's just it strikes me as one needing to have to do a lot of upgrading to enable them to do what a hydro system can do out of the box. Granted, the cost probably works out roughly similar though, so maybe that's not so much of an issue. The lack of drive assist with the hydro system (assuming PTO driven and not belt etc) isn't something I can really decide on due to having never winched myself and therefore not really knowing whether drive assist is something I most certainly need or not. I see many others manage without. Looking realistically at the cost, the option you suggested of a cheap (!) second hand 8274 or similar does seem like the sensible route. There's on on eBay now for £500 odd, with a rope. Does mean sorting out my second battery for a proper one though, and my alternator too...85A probably isn't enough to sustain it. Thanks all for the help so far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nas90 Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Hello all, I'd like to query your collective brains on an issue I'm currently trying to decipher. In intend to purchase a winch sometime in the new year, will be my first, and I am trying to decide whether to buy an electric system or to go for a hydraulic one. The hydraulic system appeals to me as I like the idea of clean, quiet, efficient power, and I like to over-spec things where I can. Having seen them in action at various playdays I've somewhat fallen in love with the technology. Money is as ever a factor (wrong side of £1,500 for a MM setup ), but I can just spend longer saving up if necessary. What I would like to know is, is there any reason why a first-timer like myself should stray away from a hydraulic system like the Milemarkers? Are they harder to use, more dangerous? I am a strong believer in the buy right, buy once philosophy, and I would like to start entering some challenge events in the next year or two. So as I say above, my question is really whether a hydro setup is suitable for a first-timer, rather than which is better hydro or leccy. All advice welcome Many thanks As you are based at East Grinstead why not pop down to Boxgrove (2nd Sunday) or Slindon (4th Sunday) and the marshals will be more than happy to show you winches in action pulling dead and stuck cars out of the mud! Variety of my MM with ZF belt driven pump, to Husky, Warn X9 and Warn 8274. If you are contemplating competition and I guess you mean winch challenges the MM with belt driven pump is too slow. For myself marshalling and a bit of self recovery here and there it is great, never fails to work, in 6 years of ownership from new have never taken it apart or had any leaks. Bullet-proof. PM if you need details of Boxgrove or Slindon. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zardos Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Thanks for the reply Tony. Speed isn't a major issue for me, it's more for self-recovery (to begin with at least) than competitive winching. I saw at least four at Hogmoor yesterday, got pulled out by two Second hand ones are always an option. If one is available at the right time and for the right price It sounds to me that even though you say buy once, buy right you would be better off with buying twice,once now and once in a year of two when you have saved up the money. The down side of this approach is that you will probably need 2 bumpers as well. For electric buy a cheap winch now, and then save up for a gigglepin twin motor and decent batteries when you want to compete (probably around £4.5k for winch, batteries, cable and bumper) Also in 2 years time winches will probably have advanced in design a bit as well. As for Electric vs Hydraulic, my thoughts are Electric Pros Easy basic setup. Winch will pull when the engine is not running (I've even winch bump started my vehicle) I think they have a better safety cut off system (most hydraulic setups I've seen permanently run the pump which can caused increase wear if not using it a lot) Winch and drive are independent of each other (some but not all hydraulic system are winch or drive not both) Electric Cons Lower maximum winch duration, but you are very unlikely to reach it in a competition i.e. Max twin motor current draw is probably around 1000Amps - Alternator output say 100 Amps = 900 Amps 200 Amp Hours of batteries is probably going to give you a usable 100 Amps Hours or 6000 Amp Minutes 6000 /900 = 6.67 Minutes (recharge when not winching / getting to next pull / setting up next pull). Which is more than enough to winch in 125ft of rope and you are very unlikely to use anything near to the max load (my guess is more like 200 - 400 Amps) They are ways to increase the alternator output if required, so not really a con. Hydraulic Pros Variable speed winching Better winch breaking Maximum winch duration limited by your fuel tank size. Hydraulic Cons Limits the engine revs when winching (can blow the pump seals when over rev'ing pump) A more complicated setup I'm sure that other people can add to the pro's and con's list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 if you want something to see if winching is for you try a TDS not alot of ££££, you can run synthetic rope (no internal drum) and its upgradble - bigger drum, air free spool, 24/12 bost kit, and larger motors for them, All the TDS's i have used have worked effortlessly and they just keep going. Dont worry about a fancy split charge system just fit two batteries in parallel. If you want to compete in time and decide hydraulic is the way to go then Saleys winches are the only real option. not that cheap though i dont believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I agree with James. You can have a new winch, rope and bumper for what you'll pay for a second hand 8274. Once you've got to grips with winching and indeed winch challenging, you can look to move on to whatever you decide is for you. If necessary, the TDS can then become your rear winch and you only have a second hand bumper to move on if your next winch is a different form factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Also Don't discount PTO MECHANICAL drievn winches Mainly superwinch, Series 5000, 525s or H14W will pull the side of a house down all day and can be gotten cheap cheap cheap, make sure EVERYTHING is in what is being sold, if there is anything missing like PTO UJs Rods winch etc forget it, buy a complete package, the rods can be altered and I also have a vast stock of select junk valuable spares for these accumulated over the years as I had these for years, drive assist still an issue a la hydros (in the main). However, drive assist is hugely useful for positioning, whilst my winch(s) will outpull many many electric varinats what it can't / won't do is allow me to drive and winch so as to help position, - important for challenges where you need to drive and winch to get the 4x4 that tad to the left etc, can be done via rigging and knowledge of angles, but an electric winch in the main is the choice of most challenge trucks for a reason But, PTO Mech superwinch is an immense winch for not much, expect between £150-£500 for a complete set up plus some timnkering costs. Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 Dave, I have been to both Slindon and Boxgrove. Enjoyed both greatly, and definitely saw some good winch action zardos, Thank you for your views. I can see the 'buy twice, buy progressively' philosophy may well be the way to go. Don't like the sound of a £4,500 winch setup though, granted that's probably top spec everything but man that's a lot of money. James, Funnily enough the TDS range what was I was looking at before I first saw a hydro winch. The way it pulled without any apparent effort amazed me. From what I have seen and heard the TDS models are a good bet though, would probably be a good start point for me. As for Saleys, well they do appear to be the dogs danglies but I imagine the cost is rather on the ridiculous side Nige, I didn't think of the mechanical driven option, thanks. I will have to see what's available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milemarker Type S Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 As a complete Hydraulic nut I am somewhat bias... But my 2p... and no I don't intend to go through the electric vs hydraulic debate (yes I know I cannot winch with a dead engine... like wise electic winches stop when they burn out yet another motor!) If you are new to winching then there is no reason why to steer clear of a basic Milemarker set up- in fact because they are so slow when things start to go wrong then you have time to react and do something about it before you trash your vehicle! Likewise there is no run on- finger off the button and the winch stops dead without the further 2 metres of line that an 8274 seems to eat before stopping... much less likely to get any fingers etc trapped in the fairlead. The basic MM set up is fairly straightforward- and can be upgraded gradually as funds allow. I am currently running two ZF74 pumps (there is a thread on here about my trials and tribulations... works a treat now though!)- which bizarrely triples the line speed over a single ZF74 (I expected double so triple was a nice surprise!) It is not fast- though I do 'compete' in challenge events with it (It is also up for sale very soon- big hydraulic pump will be taking its place- the actual winch stays the same as the basic MM set up) It also pulls like a train all day- quite happily pulling portal axled trucks out of bogs when their electric winches have long since gone bang! The one thing that I would recommend (especially for someone new to winching) is a hydraulic pressure gauge- the higher the pressure the harder the winch is pulling. Without one you have no idea of how hard you are pulling which could lead to vehicle damage if you are really caught up on something- electric winches generally slow down as the load increases which gives you some idea of how hard the pull is (the GP twin motor jobbie seems to buck this trend!!!). Hydraulic just does not slow at all until the point of stalling (the pressure relief valve in the pumps bypasses fluid to prevent the pressure exceeding a safe limit) and the winch just stops. Once you have a MM system running there is no real maintainance required- possibly a fluid change now and then and if you really want to push the boat out a winch strip and regrease (I do mine about once a year...ish and it gets used hard and often with no issues) Some of the cheaper electric winches do not like being dunked in water and then left- they tend to not work when you need them most a few months later- this has been addressed in things like the TDS goldfish etc. The big down side to a MM is the speed- they are slow unless you move to a larger pump, which requires a larger valve and pipework with only the actual winch being the same as the standard set up (the original solenoid valve can only take up to 27 litres per minute... I run close to that at the moment) If I was starting out again I would be looking for a 2nd hand MM or if going down the electic route then a TDS goldfish from David Bowyer- again not hugely quick (compared with an 8274...) but strong and very reliable (When funds allow I will be adding one as a rear winch... to pull me out of the river when my engine dies or when I lay the truck on its side and have to kill the engine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 I think, taking into account the advice offered by all above, my plan is to initially get myself a TDS goldfish (probably the 9,500lbs one). Play with that for a while and then if funds allow upgrade to a PTO or otherwise driven hydro setup. TDS could then be moved to the back as Mr Type S quite rightly put above. I would love to go hydro straight away, but it's probably a bit more realistic this way, rather than save up £1,500 - 2,000 I should be able to get a TDS setup for under a grand Thanks for all the help so far folks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zardos Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 ... important for challenges where you need to drive and winch to get the 4x4 that tad to the left etc, can be done via rigging and knowledge of angles, but an electric winch in the main is the choice of most challenge trucks for a reason ... Nige Drive assist is very important in helping not pulling your tyres off when winching sideways and it also makes it easier to pull sideways when you can drive to spin the wheels when winching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 While you save your penies you will have time to reserch more about hydraulics, You wont go wrong with a winch from john, they are solid built and you wont bust one, I built 90% of the protoype so know a bit about them, They are totaly rebuilable, every rotating part is on a ball or roller bearing, built overkill, and john has taken them on with the air freespool, milemarker's are a pain with plastic bearings on drum, they get crud in and wear out fast so freespool isnt very free, The pump set up is being looked at so in another year better pump set up's will be available, Maybe spendy but worth every pennie, Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Having now seen a few I would probably get a TDS (speaking as a Milemarker user) - I love the MM and speed isn't really an issue but when I look at what it cost overall, I probably wouldn't do it again. Or any of the new brand name electric ones come to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcwcooper Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I think, taking into account the advice offered by all above, my plan is to initially get myself a TDS goldfish (probably the 9,500lbs one). Play with that for a while and then if funds allow upgrade to a PTO or otherwise driven hydro setup. TDS could then be moved to the back as Mr Type S quite rightly put above. I would love to go hydro straight away, but it's probably a bit more realistic this way, rather than save up £1,500 - 2,000 I should be able to get a TDS setup for under a grand Thanks for all the help so far folks Im not sure if it was you but at Hogmoor yesterday you may have seen me winch my self out of one off the bogs in a clearing , Mine is a TDS goldfish 9.5 jobby, There not bad at all not too slow neither but if you can afford it a 8274 would be a good idea, all the upgrading possibilities are brilliant. Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 I think I did see that yeah. I watched and then drove thorough said bog to the right hand side where it was easier I will see what I can afford when the time comes, if there's a second hand 8274 at the right price then who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon White Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Well I've had both mechanical PTO (Mayflower on my series) and electric winches. The PTO ones are, unbeleiveably, painfully SLOW!!!! The Mayflower/Fairey that I had was fantastic inthat it'd pull the side of a hous edown, and will run all day long, but it was slow, extremely heavy, and the PTO linkage with all the rods was complicated and high maintenance. BEar in mind that parts for these are horrifically expensive if you can find them at all. Lack of the ability to drive assist is a huge drawback IMHO. I'm now running an 8274 with Xp motor. Frankly these days I wouldnt run anything else! I'm yet to need to double line it, the retrieve speed on it is so good that I dont even bother with freespool - I just power it out. I used to have an M8000 on the front (its now on the back) but have to say that I'm not a fan of any of these lowine winches as the drums are simply not big enough. I'd buy a 2nd hand 8274 and nothing else! Power wise its pretty simple really and doesnt need to be expensive. I run 2x cheapo 072 batteries permanently wired in parrallel, and a Mondeo alternator (£15 from the scrappies). I've never had any problems at all with this setup. Ok - I dont do serious winch challenges any more, but I do a fair amount of marshalling at the Shires events. I cant really comment on the hydraulic winches having never owned one, but i still feel that the lack of ability to drive assist is a drawback, and the milemarkers especially suffer as the lowline electric ones do in that they have a very small drum. HTH Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zardos Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 ... 8274 would be a good idea, all the upgrading possibilities are brilliant. Dave. Upgrading until you are only left with one warn gear in the whole winch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguevogue Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 TDS and Bowrope, as used by the highest placed team using electric winches and winners of class2 in AWDC Howlin Wolf this year. You'd get both for the cost of a second hand 8274. You might even add air freespool into the bargain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moose Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 just my thoughts... TDS and Bowrope for now. then when you get keen get an 8274 or MM typeR to go on the front and put the TDS on the rear... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 TDS and Bowrope, as used by the highest placed team using electric winches and winners of class2 in AWDC Howlin Wolf this year. You'd get both for the cost of a second hand 8274. You might even add air freespool into the bargain. Air freespool eh? The prospect of pnumatics on my truck is something which appeals to me greatly TDS is my current plan at the moment. Although as for the synthetic rope option, I don't know whether it would be worth the risk. I don't want to make a rookie mistake and ruin £150 worth of rope...wire is much more forgiving Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zardos Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Air freespool eh? The prospect of pnumatics on my truck is something which appeals to me greatly TDS is my current plan at the moment. Although as for the synthetic rope option, I don't know whether it would be worth the risk. I don't want to make a rookie mistake and ruin £150 worth of rope...wire is much more forgiving I would say synthetic is much more forgiving, it's less likely to hurt when things are done wrong. Not so easy to damage with a kink or by badly wrapping on the drum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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