bishbosh Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 I think that the nature of thw wheel makes it prone to this type of failure. A small number of small spokes = high stress concentrations at the spoke / rim interface. On a wheel rim this stress will fluctuate from tension to compression each time the wheel rotates. Add to this the hoop stress in the rim and you have a ripe cocktail for a fatigue failure. How does fatigue manifest itself? Yup, you got it - cracks. (Sorry if your Grandma is now sucking an egg ) I would grind back the weld (make sure you get right to the root of the crack) and re weld them. If you can do this yourself then it wont cost much and you can get away with doing it a good few times. Must be a better option than discarding them now. If it makes you feel better, we repair fatigue cracks in bridges all the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 Nobody has mentioned it as far as I can see but I assume we might be talking about a wheel which might have Mach in the name? If so there has been talk of failures in the past, no direct experience of that particular wheel but if they break it seems to slightly defeat the point of buying a supposedly heavy duty wheel I have only ever seen one wheel cracked up in normal use and it was a very very old (like 30+ years) Land Rover steel one, I know of many standard wheels on older vehicles that have been used off road all their life (and I am talking about off road as in the days when this country had NO roads at all and therefore everything was off road all the time!) and never had problems. I wouldn't say it should have a "life" as such as long as terminal corrosion did not set in but I have seen some awesomely rusty Defender steels which have still been ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8CAMEL Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 the ones on my series 1 have been on there since at least 1987 and they were not new. but then they are not special expensive ones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Humphreys Posted May 30, 2006 Author Share Posted May 30, 2006 the ones on my series 1 have been on there since at least 1987 and they were not new. but then they are not special expensive ones What gets me most is as I have said. Its on the same spoke on the wheels. Looking from the inside if the wheel with the valve at the top. Its the spoke to the right of the valve. So why the same spoke on both wheels? Paul PS If anyone wants to see the cracks send me a PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonPearson Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 Mach 5's - Not all they're cracked up to be! Ha ha! I had the exact same problem on a set I had on a car recently. They were the pre-rolled edge ones. I called Matt Lee and spoke to the man himself. He told me they stopped making these rims (pre-rolled edge) approx 4 years ago and that they were not willing to provide any sort of manufacturer's warranty against materials or workmanship as 4 years was (and I quote verbatim) "Beyond the intended working life of the rim". WTF??????? Mach 5's are some of the higher priced wheels out there - more than £100 each and they're not supposed to last even 4 years??? And what about that statement - the man himself saying that they don't stand by their workmanship. Er, yeah, righto Matt. I'll be buying another set then... NOT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 steel wheels should not have a 'service life' as such, and therefore a manufacturer certainly can't say they've just 'worn out' if its a weldment that has failed i'd say it's a manufacturing defect and you'll have a bit of comeback under the sale of goods act. only problem is you've got to prove the wheel hasn't been abused or used outside its design parameters... which is all but impossible... all welded structures contain cracks, and in theory it is possible to determine a fatigue life for it.. but a steel wheel designed for off-road use should be over engineered to accomodate this, and all but remove it from the equation. the fact that it has failed in the same place on two different wheels must point to a manufacturing defect.. and the manufacturer should be interested to know why it failed, so they can improve their product... just saying 'they've worn out' is a cop out, and poor customer service... i reckon you're not going to win this one, so i'd scrap them, buy a set of wolf wheels, or even disco steels (pretty strong) and either get them modified by someone who knows how to weld... or live with the reduced offset. and make sure you tell everyone not to buy steel rims from mr Lee.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 Must admit I'm beginning to feel much more content with my cheapo 8 spokes, bent but not broken, though modulars still look nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 "Beyond the intended working life of the rim". WTF??????? Er, yeah, right Matt. I'll be buying another set then... NOT! that is outrageous... and he's supposed to be an engineer.... maybe they should stamp a 'best before' date on the rim... so we know when they are going to fail, and bin them the week before... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hiatt Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 Can you measure from the rim face to the centre face and tell me what it is? The ones I have are 110mm from rim to wheel centre.Paul I'll try and do it tomorrow. If Discovery steels are +30 offset they are -10, if the Disco steels are -30 they are +10, I can't remember which way round it is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Humphreys Posted May 30, 2006 Author Share Posted May 30, 2006 I'll try and do it tomorrow. If Discovery steels are +30 offset they are -10, if the Disco steels are -30 they are +10, I can't remember which way round it is now. Ok thanks. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 Mach 5's - Not all they're cracked up to be! Ha ha!I had the exact same problem on a set I had on a car recently. They were the pre-rolled edge ones. I called Matt Lee and spoke to the man himself. He told me they stopped making these rims (pre-rolled edge) approx 4 years ago and that they were not willing to provide any sort of manufacturer's warranty against materials or workmanship as 4 years was (and I quote verbatim) "Beyond the intended working life of the rim". WTF??????? Mach 5's are some of the higher priced wheels out there - more than £100 each and they're not supposed to last even 4 years??? And what about that statement - the man himself saying that they don't stand by their workmanship. Er, yeah, righto Matt. I'll be buying another set then... NOT! WTF? That is unbelievable for what is supposed to be a premium product time to chuck away the ratty old alloys on my 4 y o Discovery then I suppose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Humphreys Posted May 30, 2006 Author Share Posted May 30, 2006 From another forum Hi Paul If you are scrapping the wheels & you really want to find out the cause of the failure, remove the defective section (& a couple of complete sections) & I'll do an assessment of the weld for you if you like (under the microscope), thats what I do (amongst other things) Well if I dont weld them up at lease I can find what has caused them to crack. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imspanners Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Can I suggest a conversation with VOSA??? If a vehicle has a defect which makes it potentialy life threatening, the manufacturer MUST recall the vehicle and replace said faulty parts FOC. I would daresay, they would look at modified parts in the same way....?? VOSA recalls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 this thread is worthless without pics. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Can I suggest a conversation with VOSA???If a vehicle has a defect which makes it potentialy life threatening, the manufacturer MUST recall the vehicle and replace said faulty parts FOC. I would daresay, they would look at modified parts in the same way....?? VOSA recalls Has someone emailed and asked them? If not then I will. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Humphreys Posted May 31, 2006 Author Share Posted May 31, 2006 Has someone emailed and asked them? If not then I will.Chris I have just sent an email to VOSA, but if you know someone there then please go ahead and ask. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 I agree. It just doesn't seem acceptible. I'm a little lost on what he is basing 'working life' on. Is it based on a time window? - From date of manufacture? Or date or first use? If so, why - there is no property of steel which causes it to fall apart after, say, 4 years. If this is the case, the date should be marked on each rim, and sold as such... but in the end that's just rubbish, so it can't be that. The only reasonable conclusion is that it is based on some kind of fatigue life. But without knowing how the wheel is used, how can he make a flat statement like '4 years is too long'? Would the fatigue life of a daily farm working vehicle be the same as a fortnightly green-laner? No. The whole thing stinks like horse-manure of a non-technically backed decision not to support failed products. Plenty of wheels out there survive far rougher use for decades. It's simply an inferior product at a superior price. I say, do what you can to make him accountable for his workmanship - God knows he charges for it. Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Pass the buck once the money is in the Bank I've had grey modulars for over 4years they have been used in all situations and when I recently had a tyre reseated as crud had broken the bead, the inside was like new no rust or cracks also the inside of the rims are in A1 condition. Mach5s had history or air leaks then I saw Les's punctured one they just aren't up to the job. and to then not warranty them is very poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguevogue Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Paul, these rims usually have a good reputation and seem to servive well when treated harshly so it does seem strange. The only thing I can think is that they've suffered a very hard life, possibly racing. I'd say the new ones should be fine.... Will, did you hear that from the manufacturer of the rims in question? I'm not sure that this statement is entirely accurate, although that is only my opinion based on my own experience of the setS that I have seen in need of replacing. It is my opinion that they should not be repaired, for the record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porny Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 The rims in question are for off road use only don't forget.... and not technically approved for road use. AFAIK they are not DOT, TUV etc etc tested, so I doubt VOSA would be that interested in a rim that technically shouldn't be used on the road.... Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rod Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 I had the same problem with a set that i had which were new rolled edge ones. The quality of the zinc plating was terrible as well. I moaned when i received them and didnt pay full money for them in the end. About a year later they cracked and i decided to use other rims instead. Would never buy them again although i still think they look great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 I have just sent an email to VOSA, but if you know someone there then please go ahead and ask.Paul No, I do not know anyone there, I just did not want to be potentially the 15th email this morning... Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 The rims in question are for off road use only don't forget.... and not technically approved for road use. AFAIK they are not DOT, TUV etc etc tested, so I doubt VOSA would be that interested in a rim that technically shouldn't be used on the road.... Ian i'd kind of been thinking along those lines... so if VOSA are not the right people then trading standards must be... as Astro Al said (and he's a proper engineer) steel does not have any properties that would allow anyone to forcast a service life, so it must be down to poor workmanship.... or processing the material in an unsuitable manner, such as excessive cold-working.... (am i right Al?) it certainly is shocking service from a suposedly well respected manufacturer... perhaps he's worried that if he takes one back, he'll open the floodgates and have hundreds coming back... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 perhaps he's worried that if he takes one back, he'll open the floodgates and have hundreds coming back... I should think he is, that is the sort of thing that could bring a company down. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Well I am not a metallurgist but it sounds like a fundamental design or manufacturing technique problem to me. It can happen - I remember reading a story about the early RR Rostyle wheels being withdrawn due to fatigue cracking. Can't recall off hand what LR did to sort the problem out but there are many wheels in service 25-30 years old no problems. Wheels here, like in other places with similar roads like Oz, take a hell of a pounding in ON-road use where the roads are unsurfaced and you are hammering across pot holes etc - far more fatiguing than "normal" off road use I would say, never heard of any problems and many vehicles run bog standard white 8 spokes. I thought about a set of Mach's a couple of years back but decided it was a lot of money for something that will still going to go rusty and there were also the "stories".... glad I didn't now!!! The excuse about a wheel having a service life is just utter drivel especially four years. The only possible justification for defining a service life would be in a competition environment like off road racing and I don't even know how you would define that - hours run, number of landings .... ? some things are given a service life in the aviation world (e.g. I think control cables in a Cessna are lifed at about 5 years regardless of hours flown) but that is hugely over-cautious on safety grounds - the set I saw that came out of Dad's Cessna looked like new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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