MogLite Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 I could PM Simon, but it would be good to get some input from the rest of you out there. On MogLite the setup is a handbrake cable to each rear drum. I'm going to run twin handbrakes, so they double as fiddle brakes. However on the horizon is a disc brake conversion, which means I'll have to re-think the handbrake option. I don't want to run a tranmission brake, either LR or X-eng I can't use regular calipers on the back, because hydraulic isn't MOT legal So I was thinking I could run twin calipers on the back, one for the regular brakes, and the other for handbrake/fiddles. Would the X-eng caliper be capable of locking a wheel when used as a fiddle brake ? Bear in mind I'll be using upto 44" tyres, so there is a lot of torque there. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Guess fitting the biggest disks you can will help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 The Normal (Defender/RR/Disco) X-Eng caliper will happily lock wheels up I would have thought! (From personal experience of just how much torque it will stand up to...) Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 The propshaft is high speed and low torque so is easily stopped. At the wheel you have lower speed and higher torque so it will be more difficult to stop. That said, Si's calipers are off some monster earth moving truck so they should be up toit one would imagine. I am sure that Si could give the specs - and a horifically complicated breakdown of the forces involved vs. the coefficint of friction vs. the amount of force applies to the lever etc.. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hiatt Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 I would be inclined to fit double callipers and use the same type of callipers for both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 I can't use regular calipers on the back, because hydraulic isn't MOT legal Really? I thought you could use hydraulic as long as it was a completely seperate system from the main brakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Having experience Nigel Webbers fiddle brake I can say they offer amazing manouverability! He said that standard RR single pot calipers were not up to the task and had to fit a pair of (independent)front calipers on the back to get enough braking force to lock the wheel (only 255 x 85 - sorry Andy ) Mark90 is right (according to Nigel) so long as the fiddle brakes are independant of the vewhicle's main braking system you can have hydraulics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MogLite Posted June 7, 2006 Author Share Posted June 7, 2006 Really? I thought you could use hydraulic as long as it was a completely seperate system from the main brakes. Here are the regs - must be mechanical Editted to say - they will be handbrakes as well as fiddles, so they have to be mechanical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Here are the regs - must be mechanicalEditted to say - they will be handbrakes as well as fiddles, so they have to be mechanical The Chichester 4x4 boy's had fiddle brakes on there trucks years ago theres was a second caliper mounted to the disc. Did you say the mog axles are drum and did the mog have a transmission brake originally. would it not be a idea to have a transmission brake anyway for the mot's sake. then have a hydraulic system for ease and practicality. only a idea but could be less aggro in the long run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 would it not be a idea to have a transmission brake anyway for the mot's sake.then have a hydraulic system for ease and practicality. only a idea but could be less aggro in the long run just what i was going to say.... fit a barely adequate transmission brake, just to please the man from the ministry annually, then use your hydraulic fiddle/park brakes for the other 364 days, 11 hours. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Or find a different MOT man, I've seen stuff with only a line lock with an MOT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Why bother with fiddles, in my experianc they don't work that well any way. I had CNC levers onto 110 front callipers and they they just weren't man enough to lock the wheels once the discs were wet. Rear steer is the way forwards, And its only a bolt on mod on moglte as well!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 I think the problem with a transmission brake is propshaft length. there just isn't room with the 404 diff pinions. [hijack] DirtyD - speaking of which, you got a lead on any steering 404s right now? I'm looking to turn my rear into a front... [/hijack] Cheers, Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 [hijack] I know for a set of 411's, and i'm currently running down a few leads with may lead to a coule of pairs of 404 axles being up for grabs [/hijack] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isuzurover Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Rear steer is the way forwards, That almost sounds like a bad pun But I agree - rear steer and a t-case that allows front digs would be perfect. But none of that solves the hand-brake requirement for the MOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonk Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 I think the problem with a transmission brake is propshaft length. there just isn't room with the 404 diff pinions.Cheers, Al. fail to see that, the whole handbrake disc sits behind the driveflange from the box, how could the diff pinion interfere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MogLite Posted June 7, 2006 Author Share Posted June 7, 2006 Why bother with fiddles....Rear steer is the way forwards,And its only a bolt on mod on moglte as well!!!!! With the standard Mog setup of two cables, its easier to just use two levers, and not bother about linking them in anyway Rear steer is the way forward, and is deffo on the to-do list I think you can just about do front-digs with an LT230 - if you are careful As Al said. My front propshaft is pretty marginal. I sure as hell don't want to make it any shorter. I'm really struggling to find space for all the levers, without adding a transmission brake anyway If the X-eng calipers aren't strong enough - then chances are nothing of a reasonable size/cost is. Then I might only do a disc conversion on the front only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 fail to see that, the whole handbrake disc sits behind the driveflange from the box, how could the diff pinion interfere? I'm assuming adding a disc brake to the transfer box increases the length - if it doesn't then obviously its a non-issue. Obviously the diff pinions being very long means there is little room for a propshaft. Andy - you can have a fiddle with my X-Eng caliper if you like? I guess Simon has the specs, but it should do (unqualified guess alert! v ). DirtyD - if you have a defo handle on a 404 front, a 411 front (if the steering bits are the same) or bits to make a 404 rear into a 404 steer, then bung me a pm/email. I'm seriously looking. If anyone has a heads-up (pun intended) on an aircraft control stick handle jobber, give me a shout. (Left hand preferred)... I may not have the axles yet, but by God I've got an eye on the essential components! Cheers, Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Why bother with fiddles, in my experianc they don't work that well any way. The only way to make the truly effective is for the shaft to disengage when you pull the brake and there not cheep. Quaff do a system but I don't think they do one for a mog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Thought I could feel my ears burning! There are a couple of issues with using the mechanical calipers as fiddle brakes - and believe me I have though long & hard about it! Firstly, the calipers are designed for a 3/8" thick disk. Most wheel disks are 1/2" or more. The calipers will deliver just about enough torque to work, still within spec - but I think you would need to go on a body-building course to pull the lever hard enough. Remember, you are not stopping the vehicle, but the vehicle plus the torque transmitted through the gearbox which can be significant. 110 front hydraulic calipers work well with non assisted levers, but with servos fitted, RR rear calipers can work just as well. It all comes fown to the amount of force you can put through the lever. Generally when you want to use them, you have better things to do than pulling on a lever for all you are worth! I would go Hydraulic for the fiddle brakes and arrange a simple, low torque handbrake on the transmission for the MOT. You could use something as simple as a go-kart caliper and a 120mm disk for this. It will not be terribly effective - but who cares. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Another clever thing Nigel did was have the levers operate by pushing down on them instead of pulling up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MogLite Posted June 7, 2006 Author Share Posted June 7, 2006 Thought I could feel my ears burning! <G> Thanks Simon for clearing that up - it was an interesting question whilst it lasted. For my next post - check the classified section "Damp fireworks for sale" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Having experience Nigel Webbers fiddle brake I can say they offer amazing manouverability!He said that standard RR single pot calipers were not up to the task and had to fit a pair of (independent)front calipers on the back to get enough braking force to lock the wheel (only 255 x 85 - sorry Andy ) Mark90 is right (according to Nigel) so long as the fiddle brakes are independant of the vewhicle's main braking system you can have hydraulics. Single pot is fine if you fit a servo for each wheel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nas90 Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Why bother with fiddles, in my experianc they don't work that well any way.I had CNC levers onto 110 front callipers and they they just weren't man enough to lock the wheels once the discs were wet. Rear steer is the way forwards, And its only a bolt on mod on moglte as well!!!!! I have fiddle brakes on my Eagle kit car. Hydraulically operated through 2 long levers in the cabin. It took me some while of testing and practice and a whole lot of training from knowledgable users to get the knack of using fiddle brakes. If the wheel you want to brake is gripping and if you are in low box you have about as much chance of stopping the wheel as flying to the moon. However, if you can read the ground ahead, back-off the power at just the correct moment and/or steer to take weight off the wheel and/or get the wheel into a position where there is less grip than the opposite wheel on the axle, then you stand a chance of making the fiddles work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landmannnn Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 If you visit www.rallydesign.co.uk they have a range of hydra-mechanical calipers..at a price. Also they sell a mechanical caliper about £50 (each). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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