Unimog Axles

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Jules I'm with you on this.

i'm usually in work by 8:30 and don't finish much before 9:30 most days. That one day off i have a week has to include a lie-in, household chores, some time slobbing on the sofa, some time going to the gym (or other exercise) and time to sort the house out- mowing the lawn etc. It's great for everyone that does a 9-5 but i usually do twice the work they do in a week.

so like you i have to pay to get stuff done- in some ways i get really Mildly miffed when people say "why don't you make your own". Uh-Huh an where shall i find the 20 hours per week to do that?

Think you have done really well last couple of seasons- especially to run two cars- is your f/lander for sale in TOR or is that someone elses?

Well, I live in Devon and work in London 3 days a week ………. that’s leave at 6:00am and arrive home at 8 or 9:00pm ………. the other two days is spent catching up on the paper work and dealing with the usual hassle ……….. often I ‘retire’ to the workshop at 9:30 in the evening and stay there till gone midnight. I’ll be fair and admit that my neighbours are very tolerant about me using the 9inch grinder at midnight . I also manage to clock up 30K business miles per annum.

HFH works ‘kin long hours ……….. you just have to find the time …………..

Life just doesn’t get handed to you on a plate.

Ian

[Astro_Al]

Jesus. This thread.

Well, we've pretty much covered it all. Now it's sob stories [excuses, I call 'em] on why we can't build what we want?

[ so here's mine... ]

I don't care what time you go to work and get home. I promise you've got more opportunity to work on a project than I have. I live in Paris, my garage is in Hampshire. It might take a bit longer than the other WBBSCers and everyone else with a project, but I'll get there.

It's just a decision. I decide to spend my free-time, weekends etc travelling to the UK to work on it. You could do the same.

It's the same with another hobby of mine. I can't do it where I am, so I travel all over Europe to visit people and practice with them. I could, of course, come up with reasons why I can't be bothered. That's real easy.

Nike had it right - still the best advert ever. Just Do It.

This sounded more like a rant than I meant it to - I'm just saying that actually, you DO have the opportunity, just not the inclination (which is fine - nowt wrong with that, but be honest about it, because you COULD if you WANTED).

Al. Meant in good spirits.

[pugwash]

That's all true Al,

i don't have the inclination to build my own truck- most evenings after i get home from work i spend trying to work out how to improve my businesses when i could be working on vehicles. I know which is more important and it's not the vehicles- probably why i don't get on with my own!

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Jesus. This thread.

Nike had it right - still the best advert ever. Just Do It.

Just how true is that statement ................... but I bet you with that you have thought up the strap line .........some advertising consultant certainly paid his bonus his bread on that one.

Ian

[dollythelw]

Al, even with your other "hobby" (filthy disgusting depraved pervert) its not a speed contest - you may still beat the rubber queens build time yet fella and even if you dont we all still love ya (who else could we nominate for "take the mick out of Al day?")

[jules]

Jesus. This thread.

Nike had it right - still the best advert ever. Just Do It.

Al. Meant in good spirits.

I don't understand you rant at me I have not done to bad in the last four years

I take a year off and you call me laze and not commited because I don't know how to weld its abit harsh.

I should have known you would use any excuse to have a good dig at me.

Nothing new or original from Astro then.

[jules]

I'd love a Tomcat.

Andy

There not as much as you'd think and there a shed load cheaper than portals well mine was and I got a very good one.

[dollythelw]

Meant in good spirits.

I think Jules this is the important bit? The thread was about fitting portals, Al's making a general point that it takes effort and nothings on a plate - I didnt see any reference to you, your past racing, or your commitment, maybe I've misread it?

[bill van snorkle]

I don't understand you rant at me I have not done to bad in the last four years

I take a year off and you call me laze and not commited because I don't know how to weld its abit harsh.

I should have known you would use any excuse to have a good dig at me.

Nothing new or original from Astro then.

I don't think anyone here wants to turn this forum into a Pirate clone where members regularly engage in flame wars. But I would remind you Jules as Jez has already done that this is a thread on fitting portal axles to various vehicles. Your input so far is just to give reasons or excuses why you can't or won't be going down that road, which is ok, Portals aren't for everyone, and that is why I wrote in an earlier post that you don't ''NEED'' them. This was not intended to be a complimentary observation of your driving abilities, as I don't know anything about the Uk scene. If you really want and ''NEED'' something badly enough you do whatever it takes to attain that goal. In my own case I had no money to purchase Volvo , Unimog axles which have an availability rating in Australia one rung above zero.I wanted and ''Needed'' portals badly.I was time rich but money poor, but I had some machining and fabrication skills, and a big old centre lathe, so I decided to make my own portals. There are others that may not have the skills and/or are too busy with family, careers, etc to devote the time and effort to adapt a different set of axles to their favorite vehicle. If their commitment is powerful enough then they find someone and pay them to do it for them, or do as has been previously suggested, forget about LandRover and buy a Volvo. If you have no real interest in Portals, and your posts thus far suggest you don't, what contribution are you making to this discussion?

Bill.

[pugwash]

I think to be fair that jules was more trying to work out whether portals are suitable or not for his vehicle.

We have now gone off on a bit of tangent now into less relevant topics.

[onto soapbox]

What i get annoyed with (and i think jules would echo this) is the "mightier than thou" attitude endemic to the off road scene where if you can't create something yourself then you aren't worth toffee. Frankly if the most important thing to you guys is tinkering with a hunk of metal then you are either very lucky (becuase it is your livelihood) or very shortsighted. For me being succesful in my business life is far more important than spending time in a garage beating up a hunk of metal- but i don't denigrate you guys for choosing this- neither should you denigrate my lifestyly. Bit of respect is what i'm saying- Al good on you that you have so few responsibilities and so much spare time to flit from country to country. I took my oppotunities in another direction.

[off soapbox]

as to portals- i know of at least 3 volvo sets that are for sale at the moment across the UK (although it could be the same set 3 times ) and have come across probably one set a month for past twelve months. Mog Axles are even easier to come by. I also know that if i cross the right palm with the right amount of beer tokens then someone will drive my vehicle into a shop, and then drive a vehicle out again.

The problem i have is knowing how far to take the work- for example is a four link front really neccessary on portals? lets be honest what does extreme articulation matter when you have lockers all round and strong enough axles to just boot it? if you keep the suspension setup exactly as it already is then mods are only needed to the portals, whcih should make the whole job a heck of a lot easier. Jez- what's your take on suspension setup for the challenge scene?

am i also right in thinking that a land rover on mogs will have a lower CofG than a standard land rover? thinking goes like this- most cahllenege spece vehicles have at least a 2" raise. This 2" raise is taken away with portals as you don't need it- as is the 2" body lift. This lowers the C of G- you then stick portals on which raises it again- but with mog axles being so heavy their is now a lot more weight lower down which surely lowers the C oF G again. Is this logically correct?

sorry to the diatribe chaps- seem to have got a bit carried away!

[MogLite]

[onto soapbox]

For me being succesful in my business life is far more important than spending time in a garage beating up a hunk of metal

[off soapbox]

Its kinda the reverse for me. I'm in a good job with a decent salary. But the payback for that is I spend 4 hours a day travelling to get back/to a London office.

I need something as a contrast and to let off steam.

I also enjoy the challenge of learning new skills such as pneumatics and suspension design.

for example is a four link front really neccessary on portals? lets be honest what does extreme articulation matter when you have lockers all round and strong enough axles to just boot it? if you keep the suspension setup exactly as it already is then mods are only needed to the portals, whcih should make the whole job a heck of a lot easier.

For me - I had a blank canvas. So 4-links seemed ideal. Why build a comprimised design when you don't have to. But 4-links and extreme travel are different things.

Good/extreme travel gives you balance and stability when driving off road. But this is completely negated if any amount of dislocation is necessary. It a fact I've done both. But if you want to debate it fine, I'll play - but start a fresh thread - lets keep this one on topic

Jez- what's your take on suspension setup for the challenge scene?

He doesn't have a clue - he doesn't play nice - only the Eastern block countries will have him

am i also right in thinking that a land rover on mogs will have a lower CofG than a standard land rover? thinking goes like this- most cahllenege spece vehicles have at least a 2" raise. This 2" raise is taken away with portals as you don't need it- as is the 2" body lift. This lowers the C of G- you then stick portals on which raises it again- but with mog axles being so heavy their is now a lot more weight lower down which surely lowers the C oF G again. Is this logically correct?

sorry to the diatribe chaps- seem to have got a bit carried away!

Positive contributions - and you've not asked for anything on a plate

COG is an awkward one. Certainly I've got an awful lot of sprung weight in axles and wheels and tyres. With retained springs, I expect the body as it is to be nicely controlled. The extra track width brings stability against mobility. However if I do roll it on a hillside - I expect the intertia will be such that I come to a gentle stop in a different county.

I'm off to the garage - I've got to ensure the butler keeps a keen eye on the team of mechanics, and that nobody steals my solid gold axle stands.

[Astro_Al]

Jules. I guess you can read something the way you want to read it huh?

>"This sounded more like a rant than I meant it to - I'm just saying that actually, you DO have the opportunity, just not the inclination (which is fine - nowt wrong with that, but be honest about it, because you COULD if you WANTED).

Al. Meant in good spirits."

I think the above is about as clear as I can get it. I apologise if it's not clear that I'm not having a go at you. In fact, it wasn't necessarily anything to do with you personally...

Thanks to Bill Van Snorkle for making the point more eloquently than I am able to.

Just to clarify. I don't think there is anything wrong with not having 'the skills' or the inclination to build your own truck - everyone has different priorities in life, but that's not the same thing as just listing reasons why it would be difficult and blaming those. I see that a lot, and it bores me now.

Pugwash. I did say in my posting that there's nothing wrong with not wanting to do the fab work / create your own hunk-a-junk. I re-iterated it above. I don't even think we disagree.

We are, however, currently discussing the activity of grafting portal axles onto a non-portal axled vehicle. This requires fabrication, time, effort and, usually, money. Saying you'd rather do something else, like run your business is great, really I hope it's going well for you, but... so what?

>"Frankly if the most important thing to you guys is tinkering with a hunk of metal then you are either very lucky (becuase it is your livelihood) or very shortsighted."

I'm completely confused as to why you consider 'tinkering with hunks of metal' to be shortsighted if someone enjoys it? Really not sure what to make of that statement??? I suppose the things you spend your time doing are that much more enlightened and far-reaching? Dunno, maybe I got the wrong end of the stick there - I'd like to think so. Otherwise you're basically insulting everyone who's doing fab work on their truck, right?

>"For me being succesful in my business life is far more important than spending time in a garage beating up a hunk of metal- but i don't denigrate you guys for choosing this- neither should you denigrate my lifestyly."

I'm not, do what you want. Perhaps this would be more relevant in some kind of business forum, or a thread on 'How you prefer to spend your time'? No-one's criticising.

>"Bit of respect is what i'm saying- Al good on you that you have so few responsibilities and so much spare time to flit from country to country."

Hmm, quite. A tad patronising, peut-etre? I'll thank you not to make assumptions about my responsibilties, the amount of spare time I have or anything else.

I don't 'flit' anywhere. I organise it, pay for it and work damn hard to create the opportunities.

My point was that people often have as much 'opportunity' as the next guy. One chooses to pursue it, the other sees the same set of circumstances as being 'not possible'.

Aaaanyway...

Regarding your technical points. There was a report done (I think in Russia) about a landy converted with 404s. Aparently the CG was lower afterwards than before (they measured it). Sorry, I can't remember the link now.

Thanks Jez - I somehow doubt I'll beat the King of Bling, but what the hell, there's always the next TTPOOA Day to look forward to...

Al.

Er... yeah... portals...

[jules]

I am building my own truck with help from mates that have the experience needed and have forgotten more than I know

I asked the question I thought necessary to convey to people that are racers and don't know portals but they do all my fab work I can't and fill in the gaps of parts I have never needed to play with so its done fast and properly...

I got a lot of help on a subject I know very little about from people that I would like to think know what there talking about for which I am grateful

there were also got some pointless comments from my questions which is all part of a forum I should be more understanding to people that don't know what I am into or what I am looking for

I'm working on Three to four months to build a tomcat I view as a lot of work so why shouldn't I try to save time on the options of axles by asking as many questions as I can to save me getting it wrong trying to reinvent the wheel

I want to be back out challenge competing next year but I have loads of catching up to do so I use the forum to help keep up to speed.

The general understanding is from comments that I understand is for the UK, portals possibly are not needed in the comp field.

have any British event been won by portal trucks and if so by what margin, allot or only just

[Les Brock]

Its ok having someone build your truck...but can you fix it in the field when it all goes pearshaped ??

thats when taking the time to build it yourself and understand it pays off...

not having a pop at anyone..but its right

[jules]

Its ok having someone build your truck...but can you fix it in the field when it all goes pearshaped ??

thats when taking the time to build it yourself and understand it pays off...

not having a pop at anyone..but its right

I agree completely that is is so important to know your cars limitations and strengths inside out when competing. I think many people do put bits on and expect them to just "do" what it says it can on the box - and this clearly is not true.

I have played with LRs for years - and done engine coversions both petrol to petrol and petrol to diesel / clutch changes / diff rebuilds / gearbox rebuilds. However I am also very good at being told that someone knows better - and believing them!! Hence why I now tend to research - and dont do things that worry me and I knwo I won't understand - ie megasquirt - a great system but I dont fully understand it - so i wont use it yet .

SWMBO and I both have a really good knowledge of freelanders - but it doesn't mean that I can't learn more and my base knowledge is 15 years of mucking about with RR and defenders - amny of those years with no money to fix them so you learn the hard way!

Hence the portals question which seems to have gotten a bit lively!! I am really interested to know - as I said - what differential they have when competing and what points margin they have won the big UK events by?

Juls

[bill van snorkle]

Hence the portals question which seems to have gotten a bit lively!! I am really interested to know - as I said - what differential they have when competing and what points margin they have won the big UK events by?

Juls

I am only guessing here, but I think the UK and Australian for that matter competition scene will evolve and courses will be designed to accomodate proper offroad cross country vehicles. Then the superiority of well designed portal axled competition rigs will become clear. It has been said that no Portal axled truck has ever won the Malaysian Rainforest Challenge. I have prepared 3 pairs of ex Malaysian RFC Volvo axles that were under LandRovers over there, and the dogs breakfast that I had to remove that served as suspension mountings and difflock actuators suggests to me that fabrication and design skills among the portal axled fraternity over there was in short supply, and there is no way those vehicles would be competitive against professional outfits from overseas.

Bill.

[RPR]

Ha-hah! This thread has become like the perfect storm!

I have portals. I didn't do the fabrication work myself. I have Portal Tek disc brakes. The power steering conversion that I didn't do myself in Malaysia reflected the kind of nightmare that Bill is referencing about portal work he has seen done there. My cheque-book is all too familiar with my Landy and yet it is always breaking down in the field and I am having to bluddy well fix it with tin foil or duct tape! It is the perfect storm.

I had an interesting day offroading today. Went solo (I know, bad idea) on a little bimble on some legal trails in Vermont - kind of like greenlanes but can be virtually impassable (and some are totally impassable thanks to surrounding land owners who drop a series of trees across the trails - but anyway, ended up looking quite a bit like Jez's friends from Lagoda at one point. Managed to slide off into serious swamp with only about 2" of the left side door bottom above the mud/swamp and serious concern that it was going to roll. I have temp tyres/wheels on at the moment and they are diabolical : half-worn 35" x 12.50 / 18 BFG MT's. They weren't much fun in general and they really were poor in the mud. Both lockers on and I still needed the winch - several times.

Anyway - last day with the 2.25 in the Tonka. Dropped it off in Maine today where Matt Browne is going to put in a good old 3.5 V8 Hopefully all will be well when I get back from Portugal and the UK end of the month. Again re topic, there is no way I would have the time to do such a conversion myself, so I certainly don't begrudge those who have the skills and facilities their pay.

Finally, since Al has been on throughout, here's a photo (albeit out of focus ) with the Land Rover sticker you sent me on the back - (oh and those are portals.....to keep it on topic)

[dollythelw]

Jules - pass, dunno who wins what. where in the UK but one comp that springs to mind would be the AFC

would it be fairer to ask how many portal trucks compete?

suspension? mines nothing special

its only an 88 but Im happy with the way it works

[FridgeFreezer]

what differential they have when competing and what points margin they have won the big UK events by?

Isn't that a bit like asking what events have been won by Simex? Any mod is only as good as the driver.

[reads90]

Isn't that a bit like asking what events have been won by Simex? Any mod is only as good as the driver.

ahh agree , gets up back to the cheque book off roader

[dirtydiesel]

The general understanding is from comments that I understand is for the UK, portals possibly are not needed in the comp field.

have any British event been won by portal trucks and if so by what margin, allot or only just

Portals are not needed as long as you have the money to pay for uprated stuff and are willing to live with the idea that your uprated axles are "only just" good enough.

For me the idea of spending 4.5K on axles that are still going to break is ludicrous.

As for whether they are needed, it could be argued that lockers and simex aren't "needed", but the cold hard fact is that portals give you an advantage, you can pain them mercilessly and they offer more ground clearance.

The AFC has been won by a willy davenhill on portals and steve loyde has finished top 5 in a lot of the bigger events.

[T1G UP]

So what dolly has said so far is that there are PORTAL TEK axles available as a direct fitment onto a LR which have the correct width,disk brakes,LR hub patterns with locking diffs for £4600 ?

[BogMonster]

suspension? mines nothing special

its only an 88 but Im happy with the way it works

Nothing special - yeah right

That is a mean looking contraption you have there

[pugwash]

Portals are not needed as long as you have the money to pay for uprated stuff and are willing to live with the idea that your uprated axles are "only just" good enough.

For me the idea of spending 4.5K on axles that are still going to break is ludicrous.

As for whether they are needed, it could be argued that lockers and simex aren't "needed", but the cold hard fact is that portals give you an advantage, you can pain them mercilessly and they offer more ground clearance.

The AFC has been won by a willy davenhill on portals and steve loyde has finished top 5 in a lot of the bigger events.

Couldn't have said it better myself- with this logic the only reasons i can see with not going with portals are a) you don't like how they drive and B) you don't have the lump sum to do it!

have i missed something?

and jez, don't come all coy with us sonny boy- nothing special indeed ! you and dan are as bad as each other (i'm just waiting for moglite to come along now and discuss his standard vehicle!)

[Turbocharger]

Pugwash - I've got a wholly different reason for not going portal (apart from reduced road speed and lacking the mechanical nouse to do it)...

Taking a step back, as the scene evolves and vehicles become more extreme (with portals, 44" tyres and monster travel) I can see a gap opening for more "entry level" events for the more mortal competitors. I'm sure many people here can remember when RTVs were the competition, a 7.50x16 Firestone SAT was the tyre to have and lockers were practically unheard of at local club events. Now half the field(?) have got ARBs or Detroit, Simex are more common and people are going further than before.

Thing is, that 'further' is just deeper into the mire or further up the hill.

Monster tyres, portal axles and rocket power will still leave you stuck eventually, it just rewrites what is possible for your vehicle. I get my kicks by bimbling around and exploring what the vehicle can do - since I've gone back to TracEdges I've found that that invariably means it's less work to extricate it when motion is lost. It just defines when you'll get stuck. For the boys who want to go where no oval has been before, that's great and best of luck to you all - the idea of being nipple-deep in a frozen lake is a little strong for my blood. I'll be staying at my own level and dragging myself 10ft back to dry land (slooooowly) with my Milemarker.

Let's run a challenge event where everyone has to run bald Rangemasters - then we'd see who can drive