Chicken Drumstick Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 We all know that as lovely as a Rover V8 is, it is pretty old in design terms and struggles to make huge amounts of power, even if you throw humongous amounts of money at it. The Jag AJV8 however is modern, compact & powerful by comparison. And very easy and cheap to buy used nowadays. A 4.0 litre version will make 290hp in full emissions guise, something even race spec RV8's often only dream of. So, I wonder, why hasn't anyone come up with a basis plug n' play bolt in kit to fit one to older Land Rover models? My understanding is these are the issues you'd need to solve? 1. No flywheel for manual cars. However JE Engineering make them work. So I wonder if there is something 'bolt on' and direct fit from another engine? 2. Gearbox compatibility. I see two options here. I know the AJV8 mates directly to the 6 speed ZF box used in manual diesel Disco 3's, as this is what JE do (which makes me wonder even more so about the flywheel). Which means all you'd need is some way to attach te gearbox to the LT230, which again JE already do, but don't sell to the public as a part. Or I know there are a couple of small scale sports car makers that mate the AJV8 to the Tremac 6 speed box in the Puma Defenders. Suspect by an adapter. Either option sounds pretty do'able and would give bolt in capability into Defenders, Disco's, RRC's, even Series vehicles. 3. EFI and electronics. I know the AJV8's have a lot of electronics and talk to the stock transmission. But tbh, for an engine swap into an older vehicle, you probably don't need all of that. All you need is a stand alone ECU that makes the engine run and runs a default (programmable) map of some kind. I know such things exist for LS1's and the like in the States. For most people all you needs is: -Ignition (start/stop) -temp -revs ______________________________ Any engine swap is always a major modification, there is no getting around this. So engine mounts, some wiring and intake plumbing and exhaust will be required. But that's true of any engine swap. But it just seems a complete and utter shame that this superb engine, an engine found in newer LR's can't be utilised better in the aftermarket. EXAMPLE: 4.0 Jag V8 engine. £250 Buy it Now http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2000-JAGUAR-S-TYPE-4-0-V8-GC-complete-engine-/281730480003?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item419871f783 If you could fit this into a Defender with no more hassle than fitting a Rover 3.9 V8 in there, then why would you not opt for the AJ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted July 27, 2015 Author Share Posted July 27, 2015 Do we need someone like SimonR (X-Eng) or similar to come up with a kit? I'm sure it would be popular with off roaders and bling tastic Defenders alike and I suspect potentially lucrative in places like the USA also. As many people like to stick "Land Rover" rather than chucking in a Chevy V8. And this would give a viable alternative option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 For a petrol lump the obvious answer is megasquirt it using existing sensors. I'd guess petrol V8 conversions are not highly sought-after these days, and most would be happy enough with the plentiful and easy RV8's measly 200hp-ish. I suspect a modern diesel conversion would be more popular but those will likely be even worse for electronics and suchlike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSD Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 I think the work involved is a little more than most companies would want to offer as a diy kit. The only one I've seen is in a classic Rangie, but I believe that used a 4HP24 from a p38. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
need4speed Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Also, there are lots of decent RV8's out there's making between 250-300bhp. Unless you were going to use the supercharged jag engine, what's the point.. The only time I could see it being viable would be if the kit was dirt cheap. But it just wouldn't be. Far too much involved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted July 27, 2015 Author Share Posted July 27, 2015 Shame, I thought there would be more enthusiasm for a good engine in a proper Landy. And the number of RV8's really making over 250hp are probably rarer than owners of tuned RV8's would like, and then there is the cost of getting it there. Seriously a "real" 300bhp from an n.a. RV8 isn't going to be cheap, not unless you go the TVR route and simply make up the HP figures... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 If you want/need >200hp you're likely into a lot of big bills for drivetrain etc. at which point why prat about - just fit an LSx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanuki Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Alternatively - why doesn't someone do a TDV6-into-Defender conversion? The 2.7 TDV6 is turning up cheaply in scrapyards and, coupled with an autobox, would be *perfect* for a fast 90. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
need4speed Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 I agree that getting 250hp from a 3.5 is going to take money but in all honesty it doesn't take much to get an injected 4.6+ above 250hp.. On a different note, regarding the tdv6, I thought that there was a few companies now fitted kits for these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted July 27, 2015 Author Share Posted July 27, 2015 If you want/need >200hp you're likely into a lot of big bills for drivetrain etc. at which point why prat about - just fit an LSx.Cost. How much is a used LS1 5.7 going to cost you? If you can even find one. (Seriously do you have a link to any?) I love the LS engines (already own one in a Camaro). But in the UK they are pricey to buy. 290hp+ from a 4.0 Jag V8 for £250 purchase price is pretty hard to beat. With a good exhaust/induction setup and no Cats you'll easily be over 300hp with such a motor. And while drivetrain can be an issue, it's not really a reason not to fit a more pokey engine. On road you'd likely be fine if you didn't try and spin the wheels all the time anyhow. And then it would be a case of upgrade as you break bits. Rather than launch yourself on a £15k+ project just to get it to a drivable state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted July 27, 2015 Author Share Posted July 27, 2015 I agree that getting 250hp from a 3.5 is going to take money but in all honesty it doesn't take much to get an injected 4.6+ above 250hp.. On a different note, regarding the tdv6, I thought that there was a few companies now fitted kits for these? 4.6's aren't exactly cheap to buy if you don't own though. And all you need to do is add some heads and a cam and prices get quite high, quite quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
need4speed Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Bare in mind though that a 4.6 can be built from a 3.9 relatively cheaply. I picked up 4.6 crank and rods for buttons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted July 27, 2015 Author Share Posted July 27, 2015 Just out of curiosity, how much is buttons? And is it something that others could repeat? That said, engine rebuilds are seldom cheap. And IMO another level up from an engine conversion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
need4speed Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 There is something your not considering here.... You should be looking to do a basic rebuild on ANY 2nd hand engine you buy. That jag engine you linked to might be £250 but how much you need to spend before fitting would remain to be seen. It was nearly round the clock afaik.. Sure you COULD put a used engine in and hope for the best but that could be a very expensive gamble.. I would never dream of doing that. Goes against the grain going to the trouble of transplanting an engine without rebuilding first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 I did look at the jag V8 but figured the rover v8 would be easier. The main issue being the adapter to my existing gearbox is available for small money (£60) and the engine is well supported in a number of different marques. Still to do the work, mind you but that's another story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 4.6 P38's can be purchased for ~£720 (that's what I paid and I wasn't trying hard to find the cheapest), scrap the rest you can get plenty back (possibly even turn a profit) if you can be bothered to sell parts. 4.0's are as plentiful as they're in D2's as well. LSx's can be had used for $2000 plus shipping, and it's hard to find anything LS that makes less than 300hp and a million torques. $5k+ puts you into new crate motor territory and $10k puts you into big numbers everywhere. Plus they are ubiquitous stateside so gearboxes, ECU's, upgrades, etc. are very available, they're the modern small-block-chevy and made in their millions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 I can't see that many people wanting a high power petrol v8 in a defender personally. If your building a car to race the world is your oyster in terms of gearboxes, axles etc and half the time the body isn't even land rover by the time they've finished. If it's for yor average Joe then they either want a rattly tdi as that's what they're comfortable with or they're a company buyer who wants to buy an asset which does a job out the box. Ok some will want a shouty engine in a rattly defender but not many and most of those that do will find a 150+ bhp rv8 engine available for £100 and fitted with stock parts is enough. A true kit would need to cover connection to a gear box, engine and gearbox mounts, radiator and pipework, a plug and play wiring kit, propshaft exhaust, pas connections, fuel system and relocation of anything that got in the way. That said it doesn't matter how many people might want a kit, if it takes you a few hundred hours to perfect it and you sell 10 a year how much would you want to put on top of each kit to cover the time you've put into it? I wouldve thought a good plug and play kit for a tdv6 or other modern high performance / efficient diesel would be more popular? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 does anyone know the AJV8 crankshaft bolt PCD? i bet it is the same as something LR, after all they are the same family Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 There is something your not considering here.... You should be looking to do a basic rebuild on ANY 2nd hand engine you buy. That jag engine you linked to might be £250 but how much you need to spend before fitting would remain to be seen. It was nearly round the clock afaik.. Sure you COULD put a used engine in and hope for the best but that could be a very expensive gamble.. I would never dream of doing that. Goes against the grain going to the trouble of transplanting an engine without rebuilding first. We must live in different financial worlds you and I. While I admire the principle of must rebuild anything 2nd hand. I'd have though most people's bank balance would prevent it. Mine certainly would. Seriously, how much, or how many £1000's are we talking to rebuild a Jag V8? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoSS Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I suspect a modern diesel conversion would be more popular but those will likely be even worse for electronics and suchlike. Having done it, the OM606 conversion is not messy at all. The stock ECU can be made to work pretty easily (A tuning company will remove the immobiliser for around 100 notes, or you can do it yourself for as little as 30 is you have electronics skills). The donor engine loom just requires wiring up to get it started. I kept the Merc autobox, and that just leaves the divorced spud shaft to make. 174 hp with 330 Nm is perfect for a 4x4. And with much better economy than a V8 Plenty of options to tune that even higher, 400 bhp and above is doable if you want to do it. Theres probably manual box options, but i didnt research that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
need4speed Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 We must live in different financial worlds you and I. While I admire the principle of must rebuild anything 2nd hand. I'd have though most people's bank balance would prevent it. Mine certainly would. Seriously, how much, or how many £1000's are we talking to rebuild a Jag V8? I'm not flush. Far from it. Why do you think my build has taken so long...However that being said I like to do things properly. Even if that means it's a little harder to do and takes more time to save up. To transplant an engine (any engine) properly takes cash. Ask anyone on here that has done an engine conversion and by the time they have finished it wil be ££££... That's why I'm saying the Jag idea is probably a non starter for you. Because rebuilding/refreshing that engine will no doubt be way more expensive than an RV8 or anything else for that matter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacr2man Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 rebuilding is not always necessary , projected life of modern engines is considerably better than older motors, which often required it and was relatively cheaper , due to less sophisticated build . I didnt think of rebuilding the BMW diesel I fitted , as it could be reasonably expected to do at least another 100,000. JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
need4speed Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I agree that diesels can do USS Enterprise miles sometimes without needing refreshed. Especially if we'll looked after. But therein lies the rub. When buying a used motor, you really don't know how it's been treated. Has it had regular oil changes? Has it been thrashed from cold etc etc. When it comes to petrol engines it's a little different mainly because they are revved harder due to the power being delivered in a different way to a turbo diesel. I agree that a more modern petrol engine such as the jag will do more miles than a rover engine before needing rebuilt, but at 100k it's nearing the time for a major inspection/work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 On the subject of petrol engines and moon mileage, my Audi is rapidly approaching 200K miles, is 24 years old, 2.3l 20V Coupe Quattro, had the sump off the other day, and was pretty much clean as a whistle in there. Only engine work it has had is valve stem seals at 140K, and believe me, it does NOT get treated lightly! Modern petrols should easily be able to do 200K, or similar to modern diesels, thing is the rest of the car is built to be recycled in 10 years so not many will ever get there. I would hazard a guess that most quality cars (Jap or German) post-1990 were scrapped for reasons other than an engine or gearbox failure due to normal wear and tear. Don't know how long-lived the AJV8 is though, not Jap or German Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
need4speed Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I can tell you right now that being German is no guarantee of reliability. I have a good friend that runs an independent garage specialising in BMW. Every time I go to visit there are engines and gearboxes lying like exploded cigars all over the place lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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