The future of diesel

[Nigelw]

Snagger, I already see V8 vehicles selling faster and for more money than a better conditioned diesel equivalent (Defenders excluded as they are stupid money for scrap donors let alone road worthy ones) seems money can't buy tadte

Over here petrol is cheapest, if LPG is installed then it becomes same cost tax wise as diesel. LPG 50% of petrol NL and 35% in Belgium.

[Raumer]

For trucks and heavy vehicles currently diesel is your only option. Electric is a non-starter for most applications as you lose too much load & towing capability. Same goes for diesel electric hybrids. Biggest single issue with a modern diesel issue is transient emissions. There is no control over the transient emissions when you are accelerating. Watch a lot of modern cars on the road and you will see a puff of black smoke as they accelerate. Lots of technical reasons why modern systems do this to a far greater extent than the older systems.

Electric cars just more the emissions to a different point so not really a long term improvement and have very low tow limits. Hydrogen is a great idea except for the fact that you have to create the hydrogen in the first place and then pressurise it.

Only leaves you with a couple of real options. Either a bio fuel of some form (for a petrol or a diesel engine) or gas. At work we are working towards gas systems for trucks that will work very well and slot in place of the existing diesel system. But so far this is seen as a small player. Legislation changes could change that.

But all of the above is based on engineering and not what sounds best politically. In reality we've had press and politics against petrol for the last decade or so and now it is against diesel. Leave it a few more years and it will pick out another target. It helps keep car companies in business and keeps the public spending lots of money. Whilst avoiding the sheer volume of emissions created by building all the new vehicles and all the other products we buy. So go with whichever option you like most and wait for somebody in a few years time to launch the electric conversion kit for classic landrovers.

Ed

[Snagger]

That makes good sense, Ed. I can see that electric would not be viable for plant, large agricultural and heavy haulage vehicles. I think it would be a good application for buses as they have limited range, never tow and seldom have a large load, but produce the bulk of town pollution. Taxis likewise. Tesla cars can be recharged with 250ish mile range in one hour from flat, so taxis would work well if a recharging infrastructure was made.

I quite like the idea of a similar electrical system in the Range Rover. The performance figures of Teslas are staggering, and there is plenty of space to add far more batteries in a RRC chassis than the Tesla has, offsetting it's greater weight to retain similar or better range. I wonder how feasible it'd be to transplant the drive system from a scrapped Tesla. It'd be a lovely, quiet drive...

[Cynic-al]

Commercial diesels have been subjected to ever stringent regulations for years with adblue now around 10 years old in trucks but only starting to make its way to cars. A lot of operators lease now so they always have the latest technology and the older trucks get sent abroad where the environment is less of a concern.

Bus operators have been using ev, hybrid and various other technologies for some time it cities to help with air quality and also get a rebate on diesel price

I wouldn't worry about the government pricing the poor off the road, nothing happens that quickly or dramatically especially when applied retrospectively. if they're going to do anything they could slap an environmental tax on the price of fuel but historically that's more of a new labour thing.

I don't like that they advertise ev as zero emission, I would rather they advertise it as whole life cycle or not at all. However if you charge of solar etc it can be relatively low polluting. Even gas power ststions are much cleaner than internal combustion. Where they've missed the trick I think is with delivery vehicles. A few years ago a company trialled a vehicle with tnt that was basically a daf 45 converted to electric. Most parcel vans don't carry a great deal of weight which gives a huge payload for batteries. The driver could wear a tag so it would only move when the driver was in the cab saving time starting and stopping and the hvac could stay on all the time. They're usually parked up all night so have plenty of time to charge and always at a depot so these is scope to install alternative charging sources. If the government could see fit to make the operating requirements more in tune with transits than trucks then I think there would be an uptake.

[mad_pete]

They might tweak diesel charges and restrict some areas but diesel isn't going anywhere.

[need4speed]

I think it's universally agreed it's not going anywhere, but the fear (indeed expectation) is that they will tax older diesels to the point that they will be unaffordable to many...

[mad_pete]

i'd expect a gradual ramp up. I don't see it worth it to suddenly double taxation for diesel for existing cars. I've a diesel car and I don't expect any taxation in the next 5 years that will specifically change that.

[need4speed]

I hope your right. I really do. My daily driver is a diesel jag. However I read a report that the AA and RAC were expecting big changes in diesel taxation in 2017..

[western]

again we in UK/Euorpe will end up paying more but other non EU countries just don't give a **** about their air quality, India is going to build loads of new coal fired power stations & we will be paying vast amounts to let them do it.

[Nigelw]

Sorry to say this Ralph, but welcome to the democratic, free market of capitalism, some will recognize the fact that Europe is starting to seem more communist than socialist in it's future policy and member states policing of the dreamt up new rules, sadly, none of it is geared towards saving the current or generating new growth of heavy industry.

Sorry Mad Pete, you thought the same as hundreds of Dutch who owned a vehicle older than 25yrs but not 40yrs of age who got a letter on the door mat suddenly making their old timer that was tax exempt yesterday into a vehicle eligible to pay road tax.

[ejparrott]

Isn't Land Rovers new ingneium-thingy engine diesel? They wouldn't pour that amount of money into an engine they couldn't sell.

[Sheffield]

I agree that diesels, or at least older ones, will suffer heavy taxation in the near future. It is something politicans can do that does not hurt the top of society who influence politicians, will only hurt the less well off who don't matter, and will seem like a good idea to most of the general population. It will also be popular with both car makers, and the second hand car trade, as a large part of the second hand car supply will quickly become of little value, increasing the price of petrol cars. The French have already signalled their intention to increase the tax on diesel fuel.

The fact that it will make little difference to overall world levels of pollution is neither here nor there. Politicians do things that suit them and their string pullers, or sound good. It does not have to be good.

[Bowie69]

Isn't Land Rovers new ingneium-thingy engine diesel? They wouldn't pour that amount of money into an engine they couldn't sell.

They did that with Project Iceberg..... also their biggest emerging markets (China and India) don't give a hoot about emissions.

[Snagger]

They did that with Project Iceberg..... also their biggest emerging markets (China and India) don't give a hoot about emissions.

again we in UK/Euorpe will end up paying more but other non EU countries just don't give a **** about their air quality, India is going to build loads of new coal fired power stations & we will be paying vast amounts to let them do it.

You should see Bangkok, Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur or any Chinese city - they stink to high heaven and have filth and litter everywhere. I have no doubt that every town and village in the region is the same. We in the west are peeing into wind with all the climate change restrictions while the far east behaves like a swarm of locusts. Far better to spend the effort and money on strategies to cope with any new climates rather than trying to stop the inevitable.

[Nigelw]

You should see Bangkok, Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur or any Chinese city - they stink to high heaven and have filth and litter everywhere. I have no doubt that every town and village in the region is the same. We in the west are peeing into wind with all the climate change restrictions while the far east behaves like a swarm of locusts. Far better to spend the effort and money on strategies to cope with any new climates rather than trying to stop the inevitable.

I vote Snags as our new PM.

At last a voice of reason

With NLs current vehicle taxation scheme I see the majority of vehicles being small petrol engined, the newer drive has seen increased volumes of hybrid electric, and these last years full electric cars ala Nissan Leaf, Tesla etc are really gaining popularity.

older diesels are very rare!!! I recently helped a Finish lady import her 1.9 CDTi Opel Astra estate into NL, tax is 108 euro per month would be half that if petrol engined but the same less 3 or 4 euro if LPG

Currently the West is using pollution and emissions of cars to raise taxes in order to head off and rape and pillage the East for resources, nothing new thete really, but there seems to be little thought to the extended future beyond 10yrs where there will be nowhere left to plunder, what becomes of our air quality and pollution levels when we become the third world and are cap in hand to the east where we have spent all of our money supporting and increasing growth in their heavy industry where they simply don't have the nanny state restrictions on emissions.

Polititians are mere puppets of big industry, something allowed to happen more than 30yrs ago, all they can do now is dream up ways to make enough money to cover some but not all of the debts, in these times of scare mongering over climate change older diesels are an easy targeted revenue stream and the flip side pushes new car sales and progress in future technologies, but almost all of the flip side plusses aee in favour of Eastern industry not that of the West.

[GW8IZR]

With NLs current vehicle taxation scheme I see the majority of vehicles being small petrol engined, the newer drive has seen increased volumes of hybrid electric, and these last years full electric cars ala Nissan Leaf, Tesla etc are really gaining popularity.

On Tuesday last there was a sudden increase in temp with rain, falling on road surfaces sat at about -15c

The commuters running their EV down the E6 into Oslo got held behind an overturned HGV.

Batteries went flat as the vehicles sat in stationary traffic as the drivers tried to keep warm and the whole thing turned into a huge mess, they pretty much all ended on flat beds to move them. I suspect it was an eye opener for some of the normally smug occupants.

[Bowie69]

So why the tax against LPG?

[landroversforever]

On Tuesday last there was a sudden increase in temp with rain, falling on road surfaces sat at about -15c

The commuters running their EV down the E6 into Oslo got held behind an overturned HGV.

Batteries went flat as the vehicles sat in stationary traffic as the drivers tried to keep warm and the whole thing turned into a huge mess, they pretty much all ended on flat beds to move them. I suspect it was an eye opener for some of the normally smug occupants.

Is it bad that I chuckled at that?

[Bowie69]

No, not even slightly.

[Nigelw]

So why the tax against LPG?

Petrol @ the pump 148.9 euro cents per liter

LPG @ the pump 64.5 euro cents per liter

LPG is not so heavily used as a fuel of choice so pump price stays low but the tax is higher, if you payed the same price for LPG as petrol, with the lesser economy of petrol it fast falls out of favour, LPG lower fuel duty but higher tax burden, petrol has higher fuel duty but lower tax burden, swings and round abouts really.

Does seem odd though as LPG was pushed as being the cleanest fuel source for private vehicles based on CO2 and NOX emissions, just goes to show that it is about making money and has f*** all to do with impacting the environment.

[mad_pete]

Diesels outputs fine particle and high nox that's pretty localized pollution so don't worry about China for this discussion. I expect tax to go up but not to the point it puts most cars off the road. Not that it's similiar because it's difficult to make the case you need a 25 year old but not over 40 year old car in the same way people need a car that might be a diesel currently but how many older than 25 years but not older than 40 years cars did the Dutch letter put off the road ?

I had a diesel Jag, really liked it.

[Nigelw]

A lot more than you might think! But that is more to point out that when they want, they will do, not just to show how many cars were put off the road, most were sold on into countries that don't suffer such high taxation on diesels, the rest of us tollerate it for now.

[miketomcat]

On Tuesday last there was a sudden increase in temp with rain, falling on road surfaces sat at about -15c

The commuters running their EV down the E6 into Oslo got held behind an overturned HGV.

Batteries went flat as the vehicles sat in stationary traffic as the drivers tried to keep warm and the whole thing turned into a huge mess, they pretty much all ended on flat beds to move them. I suspect it was an eye opener for some of the normally smug occupants.

The bit that drives me nuts is all the do gooders bang on about electric cars but the batteries are not environmentaly friendly and nobody seems to remember the electricity still has to be made in a polluting power station.

Mike

[landroversforever]

The bit that drives me nuts is all the do gooders bang on about electric cars but the batteries are not environmentaly friendly and nobody seems to remember the electricity still has to be made in a polluting power station.

Mike

That irritates me too.... they all talk about the 'zero' emissions but don't know or think about the energy needed to make the car or the electricity its using.

[Snagger]

The bit that drives me nuts is all the do gooders bang on about electric cars but the batteries are not environmentaly friendly and nobody seems to remember the electricity still has to be made in a polluting power station.

Mike

I agree entirely. They are not zero emission unless the electricity is generated by solar, wind or nuclear. But they do help improve city air by removing local emissions and the efficiencies of scale of large scale power generators may be less polluting than IC engines. That has health benefits for the bulk of the population, which is the point that the media are leaping on in recent articles, rather than the global warming debate.

Certainly hybrid vehicles are a marketing con and should never have been permitted - a car needs to be one or the other to be efficient, not sitting on the fence.