tel Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 i thought you guys should know about the products he sells, and his complete lack of customer service as i would hate to have what happened to me to one of you guys with your familys in the car while you were driving as we all know about recent events on the news with a certain landrover i had a long chat with the guy who owns rds enginneering dave sharp back at the billing show and he convinced me that his radius arms and rear trailing arms are the ones to go for so when i got back home i bought both sets, now my car doesnt get used much atall and is a lrm feature car so i dont abuse it but at a pay and play day the other day i noticed my steering felt abit funny so i took it back to the carpark to have a look and see what was wrong and to my suprise look what i see i sent an email to dave that evening expecting him to be his once helpful self with pictures showing what had happened and warning him that its quite dangerous if they have just broken like that but after 4 days no reply so i sent another email asking whats going to be done no reply, so i phone him from his business card he gave me and he answered, i explained what happened and could he look at the email and ring me back guess what no call back, so i left it a few days and called back again and asked him what hes willing to do about it he said he needs to think about it and will call me back once he has, explaining i wanted this sorted out asap i said i would call him back again tomorrow now he is not answering his phone from my land line so decided to call him from my mobile from which he answered, after another conversaition of running round in circles asking why all of a sudden the pictures of the arms and all the pictures of the arms fitted to other peoples cars have majically dissapearred overnight from his website, it all started to get abit heated and now he is refusing to do anything about it atall so im £200 out of pocket and very much hoping i see him at billings this year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 That's shocking, who'd have thought the people responsible for this sort of abortion would be in any way less than total quality I remember seeing their junk at one of the shows and couldn't believe people would actually buy it... still, it's all a very shiny shade of blue so it must be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 That looks very thin wall tubing to be used in that situation, in my humble opinion... Hope you catch him at Billing, take a video camera Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Indeed very worrying. His manner of dealing with your complaint just makes the matter that much unpleasant. I'm just glad you weren't driving at speed when this happened. What the makers of such products need to understand is that should something go horribly wrong, then you the vehicle owner will be first in line of fire when any accident investigation kicks off. It is the owner's responsibility to ensure their vehicle is safe for use on the road. History speaks for itself here. The trouble is that very few suspension upgrade kits come with any kind of officially approved product testing history to back their quality; mainly because it's so expensive to do. This makes choosing your upgrades less than easy. I have not yet felt the need to upgrade my suspension linkages, but if I did, I would very very hesitant to buy anything that was designed to be or looked 'lightweight' (this seems to be one of the big selling points of such radius arm, as well as castor correction). I think I'd go for the HfH weight of fabrication, even if it cost me a few MPG The original arms are effin heavy and strong, and with reason. The photos you have posted show the tube to be scarily thin, of course you the buyer cannot see this until it's too late, however weight of the component can be a good indicator. I know not all of us are engineers, so are not equally equipped to judge what looks strong and what doesn't. There are a number of individuals and companies who are gaining a reputation for well designed products and excellent customer support. This is backed up by them having a loyal following, reading posts on this forum will soon reveal who they are. This is the kind of confidence I would be basing my purchase on, should I be in the market for such gear, rather than a manufacturer telling me his stuff is best and has a nicer colour paint. Tel, please do not take this as an attack on you. I know first hand how easy it is to fall prey to a 'good salesman'. I can see there will come a time when we will be unable to get a car insured if it's fitted with non-'approved' accessories. (This is already the case with towing equipment.) The availability of substandard parts can only bring that day nearer. I hope you are able to come to a satisfactoty conclusion with RDS Engineering. Meanwhile - buyer beware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
need4speed Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Okay, so your choice of retailer was a little suspect - lesson learned hopefully. You dont deserve to be treated like that though.. It could have caused a nasty accident. Go along to Billing with the broken radius arm and shove it up his rectum. That will teach him some manners.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Given the very clear danger this sort of rubbish poses, perhaps trading standards should take a look? Then again, if trading standards started looking too closely at most of the stuff people bolt to their vehicles it could kill the entire industry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tel Posted June 23, 2010 Author Share Posted June 23, 2010 hi guys i do want to go to trading standards i did say that i will do that on the phone and he said "go ahead do what you want" i just dont know how to go about it im am really shocked at the service he has shown i told him if have a year old son that comes in the car with me and he could have killed us both he just didnt care he said to me in the beggining they are made with fia spec rollcage tubing witch i now know was complete rubbish but like you say you just dont know until you see inside them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Let me google that for you http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 they are made with fia spec rollcage tubing witch i now know was complete rubbish It might be FIA spec, but which spec, and who says 'FIA roll cage spec' tube is suitable for suspension components? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiWhite Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Service sounds pretty terrible, and I agree that something should be done. However, what in God's name ever motivated you to bolt these things onto your Land Rover? Consider the forces going through a radius arm in an emergency braking situation - someone more mechanically qualified can do some sums, but suffice to say that the numbers involved are HUGE. What is the matter with standard radius arms? Not blue enough? Don't claim to solve some non-existant castor problem? Land Rover make their radius arm very heavy and very strong for good reason - they'd save a small fortune if they could get away with welding some tubular steel together to form the component. I'm sorry if I sound a little negative, but please believe that I am well qualified to say the following.... If you kill someone in a collision, and the failure of some rubbish part YOU bolted on is found to be a contributory factor, YOU WILL GO TO PRISON Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quagmire Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 The problem with this kind of thing is that anyone can make them, with as much or as little "proper" engineering content as they like. As long as they fit and look alright then people will buy them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quagmire Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Land Rover make their radius arm very heavy and very strong for good reason - they'd save a small fortune if they could get away with welding some tubular steel together to form the component. Couldnt agree more- if there was a cheaper or better way then LR would probably have come up with it during the however many years that the coil sprung LR's have been flying out of Solihull... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tel Posted June 23, 2010 Author Share Posted June 23, 2010 well just got off the phone to trading standards and they have told me i have to write a letter and send recorded delivery which i have just done and is going out tonight they are going to ring me for pictures of the arm and are also going to contact dave and give him the chance to sort his act out main reason im doing this is so nothing happens to anyone else as people shouldnt be allowed to get away with selling stuff like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tel Posted June 23, 2010 Author Share Posted June 23, 2010 Service sounds pretty terrible, and I agree that something should be done. However, what in God's name ever motivated you to bolt these things onto your Land Rover? Consider the forces going through a radius arm in an emergency braking situation - someone more mechanically qualified can do some sums, but suffice to say that the numbers involved are HUGE. What is the matter with standard radius arms? Not blue enough? Don't claim to solve some non-existant castor problem? Land Rover make their radius arm very heavy and very strong for good reason - they'd save a small fortune if they could get away with welding some tubular steel together to form the component. I'm sorry if I sound a little negative, but please believe that I am well qualified to say the following.... If you kill someone in a collision, and the failure of some rubbish part YOU bolted on is found to be a contributory factor, YOU WILL GO TO PRISON i know what you are saying and my car has a 4" lift which needs castor correction i now know that the parts are no good but the guy used them on his own car i was sucked in what can i say i do however know much better now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hiatt Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 he said to me in the beggining they are made with fia spec rollcage tubing Which is rather like saying I'll make my wheels out of tar as that's what's specified for roads. Unbelievable, but at least you weren't hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errol209 Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 someone more mechanically qualified can do some sums If I may? The torque produced at the radius arm bolts under maximum braking (a slightly conservative 1G assumed, no help from the back wheels) for a laden 110 (say 2500Kg) would be of the order of 100kNm (100000Nm), or half this per radius arm. This is the equivalent of 5 tons on a 1m lever arm - repeatedly. Until I did this calc I too thought that the LR arms looked a bit heavy, but not any more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Se7enUp Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Taken straight from the RDS "engineering" (lol) website.. "Before we recommend & fit to customers vehicles we fit to ours & test it's capabilities" Followed by a couple of pics showing their trick suspension set up....with standard front radius arms! I'd say that the arms were not fit for purpose and would be off to the county court for an application form. CCJ's are a great way of getting a full refund Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 If I may? The torque produced at the radius arm bolts under maximum braking (a slightly conservative 1G assumed, no help from the back wheels) for a laden 110 (say 2500Kg) would be of the order of 100kNm (100000Nm), or half this per radius arm. This is the equivalent of 5 tons on a 1m lever arm - repeatedly. Until I did this calc I too thought that the LR arms looked a bit heavy, but not any more! I have no idea how you work this out but that seems awfully high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errol209 Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 I have no idea how you work this out but that seems awfully high. Braking force as assumed is 2500kg x 9.81ms-1(F=ma) or (say) 25000N. This is applied to the axis of the axle by a lever arm equal in length to the radius of the wheels or about 0.5m which gives a torque at the axle axis of 12500Nm (bugger, factor of 10, well spotted) or 12.5kNm. At the radius arm bolts (say 10cm from the axle axis) this is a force of 125kN, or 62.5kN per radius arm (my original number was about right, the units were wrong) which is about 6.25 tons or 3.125 tons per bolt. Yep, sorry first shot maths wrong, but answer correct. The forces are huge. In reality this assumes no back brakes and sportscar braking (over estimate) but I would use these kind of numbers for design, I really would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Wow out of all the welded front radius arms I've ever seen those have to be the worst by a long way, welded/ fabbed suspension links have there place in the correct app. but imho the design of the front radius arm on coiled rovers makes it a big no-no . There will be much more force when the axle is in 'twist' offroad than almost any other situation, as one side will be trying to twist up while the other is trying to twist down. Effectively the linkage is inherently a stiff design unlike the back end which is more of a 3 link system. I would NEVER fit welded front replacement radius arms for anybody under any circumstances. Hope you get your money back and more importantly no more are sold into the marketplace. Glad no-one was hurt, just imagine giving it the beans up a hillclimb with that 5h1t dangling underneath......... Steveb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landmannnn Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 I can't see you getting very far with trading standards. If they [rds] point out the vehicle modifications ie lift and oversized tyres, and then cast doubt about your qualifications to fit the arms I reckon the magistrate will not be able to rule in your favour. If they had fitted them it would be a different story. I would mark it down to experience and post it up on all the lr or 4x4 forums. If you link the posts to each other they will bump up on google. You might be interested by typing rds engineering land rover into google, this thread is result number 3 already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Whilst all these numbers showing huge forces may be correct, (well done Errol ) the word you need Mr RDS to look up (or perhaps get a grown up to do it for him) is "fatigue". That arm has failed at a fatigue sensitive detail. Take a close look at the LR arms. Try and find a sudden change in section size, a sharp corner or a weld anywhere near the axle end of the arms. Still looking? Well, you won't find any, because LR did their homework and engineered the arms to work. Don't forget that LR have sold and will sell 1,000's of them so you can bet they have been analysed and refined to the most efficient section possible. IMHO there are only two sets of radius arms on the market that you should consider fitting to a road going Land Rover - genuine, or if you are minted (innit) Equipe. I would go to trading standards personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 That arm has failed at a fatigue sensitive detail. After 4 days of use, it is not a fatigue failure. It is just improperly designed. If you had had the misfortune of hitting the brakes hard on the motorway, both arms would have snapped and you would have been lucky to have made it out alive. It is unfortunate that people are allowed to sell critical suspension components without any engineering certification. The stress analysis of that is very straightforward and would not involved much work. edit: Get some castor corrected swivel balls to fix the castor and put stock radius arms back on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy996 Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Two things leap to mind looking at this thread; firstly, trading standards, or you, if you go the Small Claims Court route, have a strong claim here as there is a requirement for "fitness for purpose". Remember the test in a County Court is "on the balance of probabilities", so unless the manufacturer can show a suitable design process and quality testing system, they are highly likely to lose. Secondly, as SiWhite pointed out, if your vehicle, modified by you, takes someone out permanently, the gaol time will be yours. The fact that you fitted shoddy parts from an after-market manufacturer in good faith can be pleaded in mitigation, but that will only reduce the tariff. Your claim against the supplier is likely to be a civil matter, (no legal aid), whereas the Crown vs. you will be criminal, (legal aid, but likely to happen before any civil matter is settled). Anyone fabricating bits for fitting on other people's cars for money really, really should have product liability insurance to pick up the bits if this sort of thing goes wrong. Even if you have the cover, if your design and systems are shoddy, the insurance is likely to be paid to the victim but the insurer will come to you for the claim. ( I am an IFA involved in business risk management, this stuff could be my Mastermind first round). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yella 90 Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 is this the same dave sharp that competes in the BAD challenges ? as i cant say ive ever seen arms like that on his motor before. in another respect, even qt had issues with there arms so you cant just go and slate another company. however qt services customer relations is excellent so i cannot pick fault at all with them....and if rds cannot do that then they deserve all that they get. good luck with your fight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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