Snagger Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Be fair, Fridge, most of us don't have the equipment to do that sort of testing. Stating that the engine won't be harmed by running without an intercooler but will lose performance is hardly a controversial opinion, ether. Just because I can't post up some numbers, that doesn't void what I said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Damit, these have come down in price, I swear I paid £12 each for them: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TM-902C-K-Type-Digital-Thermometer-Thermocouple-Probe-9v-Battery-/301115567341?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item461be2eced Don't let the price put you of, I tried it with a boiling kettle, and it was pretty much bang on 100 deg. C. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 hmmmmm......those plugs are exactly the same type our works dataloggers take! shame i cant borrow a datalogger as they can easily log 2-3 hrs of driving with about 25 inputs each! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Hunter Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Daan, How did you mount the thermocouples to read i/c inlet and outlet temps, please? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Yet another page of opinions, great reading! As no one took up my invitation to measure whats going on, I supposed I just have to do it myself.... So here we go, driving my truck to work today, I decided to rig up my camera and get an inside view of what an intercooler does: Driving to work involves a bit of A34 past oxford, then go up hinksey hill from a standing start, modest gradient. First, cruising @ 50 mph on the A34: Cruising @ 70: Accelerating from a red light, up hinksey hill. Flat out @ 30 MPH: Flat out @ 50 MPH: Flat out @ 70 MPH: And the last, just because I could, flat out @ 80 MPH The temperature on the right represents intercooler temp in, the temperature on the left represents intercooler temp out. On the right you can also see boost, measured in the inlet manifold. I measured a good 60 degrees temp drop flat out at 80 MPH, and 40 degrees tempdrop at 30 MPH. The intercooler used has a standard core, but slightly rerouted pipes. Standard cowling is fitted, and using the standard viscous fan. Turbo is standard, boost as per factory. Pump standard, with standard fuel delivery as per factory. I waited for the right moment when there was almost no traffic, at around 7 am this morning. Ambient temp when I left home was 14 deg c. Daan What great info. Many thanks for this. Personally I think it's the percentage differences that really stand out. When working the engine, it's obvious the intercooler provides a lot lower IAT and higher charge density, thus far greater performance when you need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 would be interested to understand what happens at crawling speed? also do you have a fan? an EGT gauge would be useful too to tranlate the actual manifold inlet temp to exhaust temp? If you mean crawling speed to be tick over or very light throttle, then an intercooler will provide no additional gain. But you aren't demanding much from the engine either. So temps and output are all relatively low. In theory you may notice a sharper throttle response without an intercooler for this kind of use, as there is far less intake track (area between turbo and inlet manifold) to pressurise under boost. But I'm not convinced this is significant and if throttle response is important then a petrol power plant is a much better solution. However if you mean low speed off road work that might involve high engine speeds, such as a steep slippery hill climb or a mud bog where you might be flat out in 2nd or 3rd, although only moving forward slowly. Then an intercooler can still be of use. It won't have the same airflow over it as when moving at speed, but it is still a heat exchanger and will lower the IAT's. The greater the airflow the greater the effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 I think my 88 without intercooler has always been slower off the mark than my 109 with if I'm honest, before David tweaked the pump even. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam001 Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Can't say I have read the thread, however I have a friend who has a 200tdi in a series 3 without an intercooler and has been running it for around 60'000 miles with no issues. When he put it in he reduced the pressure to 0.7Bar as he didn't need the power and just wanted a reliable engine with a easy engine bay layout. He is more than happy with it. So seeing that the 200 and 300 are essentially the same I don't see any reason why you cannot do it. You'll lose a chunk of power and some cooling across the inlet valves (never heard of any problems with a TDI valve) but that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 200 TDi is only .7bar anyway..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 It won't have the same airflow over it as when moving at speed, but it is still a heat exchanger and will lower the IAT's. The greater the airflow the greater the effect. This is a rather overlooked point - even with zero airflow from a fan or forward movement, an intercooler is still a huge surface area of heat exchanger mounted in free air in front of your truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToyRoverlander Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Nope, mentioned it 3pages back. I'm amazed there's so much discussion about this, it's not gonna blow up without an IC.. For very short periods an IC works as a heat sink, still cooling the inlet air temp even if there is little airflow. When speed picks up the IC will be cooled down again by the airflow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave88sw Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 It's all interesting discussion though, i posted the question because i worried the engine might suffer without one but so far the only thing we all seem to agree on is that performance suffers. In my application i'm not too bothered about having max performance because the vehicle was never designed to be fast. Based on everything i've read in these responses and the accounts from people who are actually running tdi's without intercoolers, i think i'll run without one at first and if i feel it would benefit from the intercooler i can always add it later. The responses have helped to put my mind at rest though so thanks to everyone that has responded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I've run for about 6 years without. I plan to fit one in the near future. I'll let you know if I notice a difference, which to be fair, I doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I've run for about 6 years without. I plan to fit one in the near future. I'll let you know if I notice a difference, which to be fair, I doubt. EJ, any chance of measuring some temperatures on behalf of the forum before and after the I/C fitting. it would be great to have measurements of the same engine in the same "tune state" just with/without an I/C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Err..could be arranged. I've only got my infra red thermometer at the moment, but something could be arranged I'm sure. I'm hoping to get it done by the end of the year, so we've got a bit of time to sort out what we want to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 200 TDi is only .7bar anyway..... 0.82 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 1.37.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuko Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 This I found on the internet: 12.0 psi = .83 bars 12.5 psi = .86 bars 15 psi = 1.03 bars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Daan, How did you mount the thermocouples to read i/c inlet and outlet temps, please? Mike Mike, I just pulled the hose off, and push it back on with thermocouple wire in it, do up the clamp. works ok, especially with silicon hoses Can't say I have read the thread, however I have a friend who has a 200tdi in a series 3 without an intercooler and has been running it for around 60'000 miles with no issues. When he put it in he reduced the pressure to 0.7Bar as he didn't need the power and just wanted a reliable engine with a easy engine bay layout. He is more than happy with it. So seeing that the 200 and 300 are essentially the same I don't see any reason why you cannot do it. You'll lose a chunk of power and some cooling across the inlet valves (never heard of any problems with a TDI valve) but that's it. Your friend may be happy with it, but the engine is down tuned by reducing the amount of air going in; this is not desirable in my opinion. I would say, leave the intercooler and turbo untouched, but just reduce the amount of fuel going in, and the turbo pressure etc will come down with it. This way, you are sure you have down tuned by increasing the efficiency. Just my 2p. This is a rather overlooked point - even with zero airflow from a fan or forward movement, an intercooler is still a huge surface area of heat exchanger mounted in free air in front of your truck. the idea that an intercooler is a heatsink is absolutely minimal; the thermal mass of very thin aluminium with air inside is almost nothing. I should really post a video of the readouts, because the speed of the intercooler temp changes are amazingly fast; on my post up the uphill acceleration from 30 to 80 is in about 20 secs, and you can see that the intercooler follows within split seconds of the turbo. Also if no air is forced through it, the surface area is similar to a radiator filled with mud; there is virtually no cooling. It's all interesting discussion though, i posted the question because i worried the engine might suffer without one but so far the only thing we all seem to agree on is that performance suffers. In my application i'm not too bothered about having max performance because the vehicle was never designed to be fast. Based on everything i've read in these responses and the accounts from people who are actually running tdi's without intercoolers, i think i'll run without one at first and if i feel it would benefit from the intercooler i can always add it later. The responses have helped to put my mind at rest though so thanks to everyone that has responded. Well, my opinion, and I have given you facts, which prove that you average a 50 deg temp drop, prove in my mind that removing the intercooler is a very bad thing to do to your engine. No, it wont blow up, but it just is a lot happier, whether you use full power or just trundle along. This I found on the internet: 300Tdi-specs.jpg 12.0 psi = .83 bars 12.5 psi = .86 bars 15 psi = 1.03 bars That is interesting, as 15 psi is exactly what I get on my engine. I bought the engine new crated, as a repower unit for early defenders, and I haven't touched any of the settings. most people that drove it have commented though that it goes incredibly well. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 I think the thing with boost is, as mentioned before, it's a measure of resistance not flow. So it's quite easy to see differences in readings, even down to where you decide to plumb in your boost gauge. Not saying this is the case and I suspect the normal production variances exist anyhow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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