Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[landroversforever]

19 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Have you seen how complex modern military stuff is? Pretty sure if it passed all the tests it would not be out of place alongside the average tank or armoured vehicle. Whether Land Rover care about the military market enough to have bothered to design it to pass those tests is another question - I suspect they're not interested when they can make more money bolting leather and touchscreens into things.

Also the idea that modern things can't be fixed is patently b*****s, modern cars, trucks, and other machines are being serviced & repaired same as they ever were. If I said 200Tdi's can't be fixed because I don't know how to rebuild an injection pump and don't care to learn you'd call me an idiot.

The military thing is likely a moot point anyway as it seems these days most stuff has moved away from land rover sized vehicles. 

[Snagger]

3 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Have you seen how complex modern military stuff is? Pretty sure if it passed all the tests it would not be out of place alongside the average tank or armoured vehicle. Whether Land Rover care about the military market enough to have bothered to design it to pass those tests is another question - I suspect they're not interested when they can make more money bolting leather and touchscreens into things.

Also the idea that modern things can't be fixed is patently b*****s, modern cars, trucks, and other machines are being serviced & repaired same as they ever were. If I said 200Tdi's can't be fixed because I don't know how to rebuild an injection pump and don't care to learn you'd call me an idiot.

I didn’t say they cannot be repaired, I said they can’t be field repaired like simpler vehicles.  As for JLR and their interest in military stuff, we are all familiar with how they refused to tender to replace the Wolf fleet.  They have no interest at all in military or emergency services vehicles other than modified RRs for specialist police use.  That is their choice to make, though I’m surprised they’d turn down so much MoD money.

[deep]

12 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

 

Also the idea that modern things can't be fixed is patently b*****s, modern cars, trucks, and other machines are being serviced & repaired same as they ever were. If I said 200Tdi's can't be fixed because I don't know how to rebuild an injection pump and don't care to learn you'd call me an idiot.

I fear you are happily over-positive here.  There are numerous stories of cars being sidelined or bricked because of the simplest of things (witness the TFL issues with their new Defender, many pages ago in this thread).  Even my previous, comparatively old Freelander 2 had un-fixable electrical issues following rodent damage. Unfixable in that I couldn't fix it myself, couldn't find anyone else who could fix it and installing a new loom wasn't close to cost-effective.  Sure, many issues with modern cars are relatively straightforward, if you can plug in a diagnostic machine, if it tells you the correct fault and if the fault can be repaired easily.  However, even the first part of that can be a nightmare as not all diagnostic tools are the same and some things are dealer-only access (and my nearest Land Rover dealer is half a day a way).  Without a shadow of doubt, an old school Land Rover (that isn't worn out) and a mechanic of modest ability is going to be vastly more likely to last the distance and provide peace of mind in the boondocks.

Edited May 16 by deep
spuling

[Snagger]

11 hours ago, deep said:

I fear you are happily over-positive here.  There are numerous stories of cars being sidelined or bricked because of the simplest of things (witness the TFL issues with their new Defender, many pages ago in this thread).  Even my previous, comparatively old Freelander 2 had un-fixable electrical issues following rodent damage. Unfixable in that I couldn't fix it myself, couldn't find anyone else who could fix it and installing a new loom wasn't close to cost-effective.  Sure, many issues with modern cars are relatively straightforward, if you can plug in a diagnostic machine, if it tells you the correct fault and if the fault can be repaired easily.  However, even the first part of that can be a nightmare as not all diagnostic tools are the same and some things are dealer-only access (and my nearest Land Rover dealer is half a day a way).  Without a shadow of doubt, an old school Land Rover (that isn't worn out) and a mechanic of modest ability is going to be vastly more likely to last the distance and provide peace of mind in the boondocks.

There is growing concern in some quarters, perhaps paranoia, but perhaps not, that modern vehicles with all those ECUs and wireless connection could be bricked deliberately by manufacturers (Tesla do it already), dealers, insurers or authorities.  While this can have benefits to make sure that vehicles are immobilised if in an unsafe condition or being operated illegally, it is also open to a great deal of abuse by organisations with political or personal vendettas - just look at how Royal Mail, the NHS, NatWest, the SNP and so many others have been behaving towards anyone who doesn’t tow their line, and look at the Chinese social credit system that is being pushed by some in the west.  The ability of nefarious individuals and organisations to disable your car and cripple your life because they didn’t like a Facebook post, mistook you for someone else or just want to cause trouble is not to be ignored.

[Bowie69]

5 hours ago, Snagger said:

the Chinese social credit system that is being pushed by some in the west.

What do you think the money is in your wallet?

 

[Snagger]

1 hour ago, Bowie69 said:

What do you think the money is in your wallet?

 

Should your bank decide to block your cards, it doesn’t just limit electronic transactions, it also heavily restricts access to cash.  The more we depend on electronics that are connected to someone else’s operating systems and controls, the more vulnerable we become to their whims.  Like I said, it has become extreme in China, but we see events of it in west, mainly in response to political views and “cancel culture”.  It’s not just EVs that have this vulnerability built in - it is most modern cars.

[Retroanaconda]

Wow, I knew this thread had already become a repetitive bore but I hadn’t anticipated the tinfoil hat direction.

[landroversforever]

Roll up roll up. 

Bargain of £300 each. Multiple styles available. 10% discount for forum members

 

Including new safety design:

[Snagger]

I saw this one today, which looked rather smart.  Still not sold on them, but it did look like it had good poise, maybe because of the black lower panels.   I came to realise my biggest problem with its looks are the front - it seems to borrow more from the early Freelander 1 than the original Defender.  From the side, they don’t look bad, and this one looked pretty sharp.
 

I also saw a Suzuki with Defender style body kit a few weeks ago in the same location (Dubai Mall car park) - its owners came back while I was looking at it and were chuffed that someone knew what it was and what had been added (and why).

[Lightning]

Well, after 18 months ownership of a new Defender in base specification with the steel wheels, l've changed my opinion.

The new Defender is a great 4x4 and l can't fault its ability both on and off road. lt looks good as well, and is great to drive. 

But it's not a Defender. lt's just too far removed from the old one. The lneos Grenadier is a "new Defender" and to be honest so is our 2020 Jimny. Although it's a bit small to be a serious contender.

 

 

[ThreePointFive]

Worse car = better, got you.

[Lightning]

lt's not better or worse than the old Defender, it's just different.

For my business use it's better than my old Defender. 

But l am using the vehicle as a car, and not off road or for Overlanding. The kind of things that the old Defender excels at. To be honest l would have had a Grenadier, which seems to be the best of both worlds 

[Happyoldgit]

On 6/3/2024 at 10:46 AM, Lightning said:

lt's not better or worse than the old Defender, it's just different.

For my business use it's better than my old Defender. 

But l am using the vehicle as a car, and not off road or for Overlanding. The kind of things that the old Defender excels at. To be honest l would have had a Grenadier, which seems to be the best of both worlds 

The price of Grenadiers appears to be continuing a downward trend, at least in this part of the world.

[Lightning]

Yes here too. l've been looking, new they now start at £65,000 but there's quite a few with negligible mileage at under £50,000 and not the basic versions either.

[Daan]

Defender on 35s, will be on show on the great british landrover show:

https://arctictrucks.com/uk/land-rover-Defender-AT35/

[Lightning]

l was thinking about this today, while browsing another Land Rover forum where the new Defender is being discussed.

There's one thread about the rear towing eyes and how they can develop surface rust. Some owners have demanded that LR replace these parts completely which means dismantling the rear end of the vehicle.

l have suggested that the towing eyes won't develop surface rust if you spend thirty seconds spraying them with a wax based rust proofing product.

Most have either not read, or not acted on my post and carried on the complaints to their LR dealer. Maybe because they don't think it's something they should have to do. The thread has gone to four pages.

The point to all this is, if people are whingeing about surface rust on towing eyes, how would they have coped if presented with a vehicle along the lines of the old Defender. You know, separate chassis, exposed crossmember, axles etc. 

The Grenadier has all this, plus a steering system like the original Defender and what a great vehicle it is.

But look at the complaints about the steering. And the manual engaged differential locks etc have come up for criticism as well. And the horror of an occasional water leak into the vehicle has had people wringing their hands with frustration, and even rejecting the vehicle outright.

What l am getting at is, l don't think most owners today would cope with a vehicle that they actually had to take care of, and also accept some compromises due to the design.

So while l would have loved (and preferred) LR to build a new "old" Defender, l don't think it would have worked in the wider market. Sure, they'd have sold some. To people like you and me. But it wouldn't have been the success story that the new "Defender" has been.

Edited Monday at 08:33 PM by Lightning

[Lightning]

Here's the offending towing eyes. Obviously mine (top photo) haven't rusted because l've sprayed them a couple of times in the two years l have owned the vehicle. Also shown what happens if you don't spray them and the cause of the complaints to LR.

Edited Monday at 08:46 PM by Lightning

[Retroanaconda]

53 minutes ago, Lightning said:

The point to all this is, if people are whingeing about surface rust on towing eyes, how would they have coped if presented with a vehicle along the lines of the old Defender. You know, separate chassis, exposed crossmember, axles etc.

You have been a member of that forum long enough to know exactly how people reacted - it was always full of threads on corrosion, soundproofing, and various other improvements to make the vehicles more car-like. Particularly in the last few years of production when the Defender suddenly became extra fashionable. 

[Chicken Drumstick]

1 hour ago, Lightning said:

l was thinking about this today, while browsing another Land Rover forum where the new Defender is being discussed.

There's one thread about the rear towing eyes and how they can develop surface rust. Some owners have demanded that LR replace these parts completely which means dismantling the rear end of the vehicle.

l have suggested that the towing eyes won't develop surface rust if you spend thirty seconds spraying them with a wax based rust proofing product.

Most have either not read, or not acted on my post and carried on the complaints to their LR dealer. Maybe because they don't think it's something they should have to do. The thread has gone to four pages.

The point to all this is, if people are whingeing about surface rust on towing eyes, how would they have coped if presented with a vehicle along the lines of the old Defender. You know, separate chassis, exposed crossmember, axles etc. 

The Grenadier has all this, plus a steering system like the original Defender and what a great vehicle it is.

But look at the complaints about the steering. And the manual engaged differential locks etc have come up for criticism as well. And the horror of an occasional water leak into the vehicle has had people wringing their hands with frustration, and even rejecting the vehicle outright.

What l am getting at is, l don't think most owners today would cope with a vehicle that they actually had to take care of, and also accept some compromises due to the design.

So while l would have loved (and preferred) LR to build a new "old" Defender, l don't think it would have worked in the wider market. Sure, they'd have sold some. To people like you and me. But it wouldn't have been the success story that the new "Defender" has been.

You do have to bear in mind the old Defender was a lot cheaper. The 12 plate pickup we have on the farm was only £17k brand new as a customer order. 
 

According to the Bank of England inflation calculator that would be £23,700 today! Clearly expectations on a £60,00-80,000+ vehicle should be a lot higher with regards to rusting in short order.

As a side note, the old Defender in its entire production run was never actually offered from the factory with off road recovery points. And if they did suffer rust in warranty on other parts then it would be fully expected to be covered and sorted free of charge. I do not see it as an unreasonable expectation that the same should be true for the current model.

As for the Grenadier. Yes there does seem an odd choice in how the diffs, or rather the warning light detects how they disengaged. But it should be a fairly simple revision and fix for them to solve. Not too bad really considering they have never designed or built a vehicle before. The steering is of more concern I do agree. While you can get used to it, I do suspect something got lost in translation and maybe they worked too hard to replicate a worn out broken Series II steering that needed major work. Any Land Rover from 1948 onwards in good working order has always self centred fine when driving as does any other current or recent 4x4 using a steering box like the current Wrangler and the heavy duty pickups (or Jimny even). Hopefully Ineos will listen to the feedback and fix this as production continues.

 

[deep]

23 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

The steering is of more concern I do agree. While you can get used to it, I do suspect something got lost in translation and maybe they worked too hard to replicate a worn out broken Series II steering that needed major work. Any Land Rover from 1948 onwards in good working order has always self centred fine when driving as does any other current or recent 4x4 using a steering box like the current Wrangler and the heavy duty pickups (or Jimny even). Hopefully Ineos will listen to the feedback and fix this as production continues.

 

I'm not so sure about that.  If you set up a Series with the correct amount of tension on the swivel bearings and/or have a hydraulic steering damper, there is a very definite resistance to immediate self-centring.  It isn't what I'd call a major problem but is something that has bothered me for years.  Maybe it's worse on the Grenadier, or seems worse because you would possibly chuck it around a bit more.  I don't think power steering would help either.

I'm intrigued by that price conversion you quoted.  I think that would be about the same here too.  Depreciation on tidy old Series Land Rovers is essentially non-existent!

[Lightning]

What l am trying to say is, there's nothing wrong with the Grenadier. lt's a "proper" 4x4 like the old Defender was.

But 95% of owners today don't want to accept the compromises.

So for them, the new Defender is perfect. lt's got the name, looks great, and it is highly competent on and off road.

Land Rover is never going to "go back" to the old Defender. So it's great that lneos stepped in. l am sure the Grenadier will be refined as time goes on, it actually looks better in real life than a photo.

l saw a black one parked up recently. l would challenge anyone to look at that vehicle, and not want one.

 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 09:13 AM by Lightning

[Chicken Drumstick]

30 minutes ago, Lightning said:

What l am trying to say is, there's nothing wrong with the Grenadier. lt's a "proper" 4x4 like the old Defender was.

But 95% of owners today don't want to accept the compromises.

I think this very much depends what part of the world and market segments you look at.

Jeep have been consistently selling over 200,000 Wranglers per annum. Which is a fair percentage of global JLR sales by comparison. This would suggest that there are lots of people prepared to buy live axle off road focused off roaders. 
 

Likewise lots of pickup trucks are sold each year. Not all are front live axle, although there are still quite a lot. And many are plusher these days, but a lot of them are far nearer to the Grenadier than the new Defender in terms of design, ride and refinement. 
 

In Oz and parts of Asia more basic pickups are very popular. Again more akin to a traditional Defender or Grenadier. And of course vehicles like the 70 Series Land Cruiser, I don’t have sales figures but there is enough demand that Toyota have just reintroduced it to the JDM.

Therefore I would say that absolutely there is a demand and want for such vehicles. However, JLR have actively chosen not to compete in that market segment. 

[Chicken Drumstick]

11 hours ago, deep said:

I'm not so sure about that.  If you set up a Series with the correct amount of tension on the swivel bearings and/or have a hydraulic steering damper, there is a very definite resistance to immediate self-centring.  It isn't what I'd call a major problem but is something that has bothered me for years.  Maybe it's worse on the Grenadier, or seems worse because you would possibly chuck it around a bit more.  I don't think power steering would help either.

I'm intrigued by that price conversion you quoted.  I think that would be about the same here too.  Depreciation on tidy old Series Land Rovers is essentially non-existent!

Not sure I’ve driven a Series with a steering damper fitted. May have, but it has been a few years since I’ve driven a Series. I fitted PAS to my last one. I don’t recall any of them not self cantering though. But accept they can be setup differently. 
 

With the Grenadier you have to physically and manually wind the steering back to straight ahead when you pull out of a junction. Personally I could get used to it and it didn’t bother me that much. But it did feel very odd and does make straightening up a lot slower and more prone to over compensation. To which I find it an odd design choice. I’ve driven loads of 4x4’s over the years, Jeeps, Jimny’s other Land Rovers etc. I never driven anything with remotely similar steering. 
 

When I was on one of the driving days I asked them about the steering and they simply fobbed off saying it was a physical limitation of using a steering box, live axle and the resulting caster angle and that “all” other similar 4x4’s are the same. Clearly this isn’t remotely true, I’d guess the instructors actually didn’t know the reason for the odd steering and had probably been briefed to fob people off with a fancy sounding reason. 
 

As for the prices. Yes very interesting. I bought a new Jimny a few years back for £19.5k. Had Land Rover still offered a proper 4x4 at similar money it would have been a real contender. 
 

On the family farm my Uncle also has a well specced 65 plate hard top 90. Feb 2016 delivery, so one of last traditional Defenders. Again it was a factory order due to the spec. I don’t recall the exact price but it was something like £23-26k. I have a feeling it was £26k inc VAT as he would have been able to claim the VAT back through the farm. To be fair that does work out to £34.5k today. But still hugely less money than a new Defender. 

[Retroanaconda]

1 hour ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Clearly this isn’t remotely true, I’d guess the instructors actually didn’t know the reason for the odd steering and had probably been briefed to fob people off with a fancy sounding reason. 

This is exactly the case. I’ve had the same discussion with various salesmen and drivers on test events. 

I’m sure they’ll fix it in V2

[Bowie69]

2 hours ago, Lightning said:

l saw a black one parked up recently. l would challenge anyone to look at that vehicle, and not want one.

Well, challenge accepted and I passed, there's an all black on in the village and frankly I think it looks ridiculous.

But it's all very subjective, of course.