Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[Snagger]

Quite.  Governments of any nation should invest in domestic businesses and create a business-friendly environment to maximise employment and tax revenues.  That includes low taxation rates to allow business to thrive.  A small slice of a huge pie is better than an industry-killing big slice of a small pie.  Look at the UK’s new blue passports - tenders were made by UK companies, but the Civil Service went with the “cheapest” bid, which was a French company.  Of course, that is the most expensive bid, because while the ticket price might be the lowest, the money and jobs are lost overseas permanently - a domestic contract of slightly higher numbers costs almost nothing to the tax payer because the money comes back to government through corporation taxes, rates, employee income taxes and VAT on the money they spend - it just goes around in circles.

But you are also right about the reliability of logistics trains, John - most manufacturers of all sorts of products around the world learned a sharp lesson about globalisation with the Chinese response to Covid and now Taiwan.

[Lightning]

On 10/31/2023 at 10:37 AM, Chicken Drumstick said:

Not meaning to be flippant. This is of course what the world and brand needs. A likely £150,000 off road focused model that nobody will use off road due to the cost 🙄 Talk about about a brand loosing its way.  

But the new Defender still has a full order book and waiting list of up to 15 months on the Commercial version.

They are everywhere round here. Sales are what's most important and in that respect JLR will consider the new Defender a total success.

lt's a shame JLR didn't build a "Grenadier" though. But l doubt they would have sold as many if it was at all compromised on road.

For instance

Just look at all the whingeing in reviews about the Grenadier steering.

(they've used a steering box as it's a "proper" off road vehicle)

I own a new Defender 90 Commercial which is a great vehicle, but if l was crossing Africa l would sell it and buy a Defender TD5 or TDi.

While the new one would undoubtedly do it, l would feel more at one with the journey in the old model.

 

[Ed Poore]

On 11/15/2023 at 2:51 PM, FridgeFreezer said:

The US are throwing huge amounts at bringing chip manufacturing back home, for example, and a lot of places seem determined to be making batteries at home.

It's a nice idea but it takes time, we had a great example of this in my old job one of our customers had a directive from on high in the government of that country that they wanted all stuff relating to their area of work sourced in-country rather than from overseas. It was admittedly a very niche and extremely small market but our customer responded with "okay, but are you willing to go back 10-15 years in capability?". The higher-ups were very put out and demanded an explanation and the response was "That's how far ahead of the rest of the world this little team of 50 odd engineers based in the UK are, we can do it but you'll need to give us a couple of decades to source the talent and catch up". Needless to say we were rather chuffed.

[Chicken Drumstick]

2 hours ago, Lightning said:

But the new Defender still has a full order book and waiting list of up to 15 months on the Commercial version.

They are everywhere round here. Sales are what's most important and in that respect JLR will consider the new Defender a total success.

lt's a shame JLR didn't build a "Grenadier" though. But l doubt they would have sold as many if it was at all compromised on road.

For instance

Just look at all the whingeing in reviews about the Grenadier steering.

(they've used a steering box as it's a "proper" off road vehicle)

I own a new Defender 90 Commercial which is a great vehicle, but if l was crossing Africa l would sell it and buy a Defender TD5 or TDi.

While the new one would undoubtedly do it, l would feel more at one with the journey in the old model.

 

It does make you wonder if JLR are deliberately restricting supply to increase perceived demand and values. I believe JLR sales numbers are down in general. The D5 sales have fallen off a cliff to the point that JLR now want to reposition the model.... wonder how that happened 😂 

I think if you look Range Rover Sport sales are also down. I know of a couple of people who chopped in Sports for the new Defender.

So yes it the new model has been a success in isolation and probably in general for JLR. But I don't think it is as good as portrayed as many of the sales are taken from their other models, rather than new customers. But I think the most important thing to note is, not every model of car can be or even should be a best seller. Mazda sell way more hatchbacks than sports cars. But I'm very glad they still put the effort into producing a bespoke model designed to be something that will never be the highest volume seller.

Don't get me wrong, I like the new Defender. It is a brilliant Discovery. Which clearly many potential Discovery owners also agree with.

[landroversforever]

Certainly seeing an ever increasing number of new defenders around here. Most of them seemingly having replaced D4/RRS going by some of the private plates I recognise, and the corresponding drop in sightings of those models. 

[Bowie69]

I mean why would you have a D5 if you can have a Defender with likely higher residuals?

[Lightning]

"Don't get me wrong, I like the new Defender. It is a brilliant Discovery. Which clearly many potential Discovery owners also agree with"

 

Have you owned or driven all three vehicles (Discovery 3/4, Discovery Sport, Defender) to come to this conclusion?

The new Defender is nothing like a Discovery, l've driven both Discovery and Discovery Sport. My friend had a Sport until it was stolen. l drove that from time to time. Completely different vehicle 

My other friend swapped his Discovery 4 for a Defender 110 and l drove that one a fair bit, including towing a twin axle caravan with it. was nothing like a Defender.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Lightning

[Chicken Drumstick]

45 minutes ago, Lightning said:

"Don't get me wrong, I like the new Defender. It is a brilliant Discovery. Which clearly many potential Discovery owners also agree with"

 

Have you owned or driven all three vehicles (Discovery 3/4, Discovery Sport, Defender) to come to this conclusion?

The new Defender is nothing like a Discovery, l've driven both Discovery and Discovery Sport. My friend had a Sport until it was stolen. l drove that from time to time. Completely different vehicle 

My other friend swapped his Discovery 4 for a Defender 110 and l drove that one a fair bit, including towing a twin axle caravan with it. was nothing like a Defender.

Have not owned, but have driven. I know people that own pretty much every model of LR from and early 1953 80" to a brand new Defender 110 delivered last month. I have 3 Land Rovers parked outside the house now and between immediate family we currently total somewhere in the region of 16 or 17 Land Rovers. Obviously lots of Land Rover experienced people on here too. But I have lived and breathed Land Rovers all my life. My parents and Uncle are founding members of our local Land Rover club. I only say this, as I'm not just being an armchair critic. I have driven, been in, off roaded and have experience of or have close friends that have experience of.

I sadly don't have the finances to have bought or owned all that many of the more recent and newer models. But I have lots of experience across most of the model range bar the new RRS, FFRR and Velar.

Disco3/4 is IMO very similar in many ways to the new 110. Certainly closer than the D5 is to the D4. 

Discovery Sport I never mentioned. I said Range Rover Sport.

As said, I don't dislike the current model. But for me it is only a Defender in name and is clearly pitched at the Discovery sector of the market. Hence Disco 5 sales being in free fall for the last few years.

 

e.g.

In N America JLR have gone from selling almost 11,000 Discos in 2016 to just 1488 last year and about the same this year.

In Europe it has gone from 42,000 in 2017 down to 14,000 last year.

 

2022 EU sales for the new Defender are 17,600. 

[deep]

Minor disagreements of perspective aside, it's true that the bigger Land Rover products (the ones with north-south motors and transfer boxes) are more similar than different.  If you take a new Defender, Discovery 5 or Range Rover for a drive, they will all be spacious, have great visibility, go quite well, handle decently and give you some sort of luxurious feeling (though nothing like an old school luxury car does).  All of them have decent off-road potential, few will be used that way.  You might say that one is geared more as a family car, another as a workhorse, another as a corporate or prestige car but they actually all fill all those roles.  Of course they are different but those differences are deliberately created by stylists and are not major, intrinsic differences.  

Therefore, anyone paying the money is going to decide which to get less on which is more suitable for the task and more on either price, image or odd features that suit them better.  The Disco 5 having such a forgettable design, it's no surprise if people choose a Defender (+D6, as most of us perceive it!) instead.  If you are buying a Range Rover Sport because you can't afford the full deal model, well, get a Defender and you won't look like a cheapskate.  And if you live out in the country and have a few acres, the new Defender really is the successor of the first Range Rovers anyway.  Which is what really bugs people who didn't want that ...

[Lightning]

Discovery 4 is an awesome vehicle, hindered only by the issues with random engine failure.

I would have bought my friends (and saved around £25,000 over the cost of my Defender) but there's too many failures of the TDV6

[landroversforever]

10 hours ago, Lightning said:

Discovery 4 is an awesome vehicle, hindered only by the issues with random engine failure.

I would have bought my friends (and saved around £25,000 over the cost of my Defender) but there's too many failures of the TDV6

You'd have saved money even putting aside enough for an engine change.

[Lightning]

True enough 

But it's actually a bit more complicated than that.

As it's the "Commercial" version

l've been able to put the Defender through my business and saved £14,000 in tax due to the govt scheme that was running last year.

So long as l don't sell it because then l would be taxed on the sale price.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Lightning

[Chicken Drumstick]

lol and they say it isn't a Discovery.....

j/k

But you can clearly see where the design language has come from with the profile, shape, alpine lights, longer bonnet, spare wheel. I would say this D2 looks amazing to my eyes. So I suppose it isn't an insult to the new model. Why oh why did they have to put Defender badges on it. 🤦‍♂️

 

 

[deep]

The irony of that post is that the Disco 2 is far more closely related to early Defenders and their predecessors than the new Defender is!  It's all just a big melting pot of fairly similar vehicles, now that they don't support the original Land Rover market.

[ThreePointFive]

32 minutes ago, deep said:

The irony of that post is that the Disco 2 is far more closely related to early Defenders and their predecessors than the new Defender is!  It's all just a big melting pot of fairly similar vehicles, now that they don't support the original Land Rover market.

But at their earliest, you're talking about vehicles separated by 6 years.

2020 is 36 years on. Of course it moved on since then.

.....I wish this thread would.

[deep]

23 hours ago, ThreePointFive said:

But at their earliest, you're talking about vehicles separated by 6 years.

2020 is 36 years on. Of course it moved on since then.

.....I wish this thread would.

Bizarre comment.  Land Rovers have been changing since late 1949.  

And how do you expect this thread to move on when the main subject has been a fact of life for a number of years?  I believe you have the option of choosing not to follow it...

[FridgeFreezer]

"What I Would Fix On The New Land Rover Defender, A Car I Helped Design"

https://www.theautopian.com/i-fix-something-i-dont-like-on-the-new-land-rover-defender-a-car-i-worked-on/

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

12 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

"What I Would Fix On The New Land Rover Defender, A Car I Helped Design"

https://www.theautopian.com/i-fix-something-i-dont-like-on-the-new-land-rover-defender-a-car-i-worked-on/

 

That is a very challenging read, the tone is dreadful. Had to close the tab in the end.

[Ed Poore]

4 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

That is a very challenging read, the tone is dreadful. Had to close the tab in the end.

Same here - basically all I got from what I read was that he changed in a render from bonded glass to having a metal frame around the windows...

[simonr]

I thought it was OK to read - and I agree with his style changes!

I've test driven one - and thought it was wonderful to drive.  I was very tempted to buy one but just couldn't persuade myself I liked the styling of the exterior.  Interior is pretty good though.

I keep hoping it will grow on me.

I'm not seeking for a retro looking Defender, just something that embodies the feeling you get from original Defenders, G Wagons and a few others.  They look a lot better covered it accessories to break up the solid colour, but I'm not a fan of covering vehicles in boxes, ladders & stuff.  The guy might be on to something, that all it needs is a different paint style, just to break it up rather than to look retro.

[Snagger]

The writing style was probably meant far more tongue in cheek than it reads.  I agree with the points he makes - it would have looked better his way.

[FridgeFreezer]

Maybe this one hit a bit close to some of the comments on this thread:

Quote

I’m not talking about redesigning the whole thing with a ladder frame, pig iron axles, the powerplant from an oiler and locking hubs or whatever other chunks of Victorian railway engineering those wrong-uns on the forums were bleating constituted a REAL DEFENDER. Those inbreds can take their three-fingered farm hands to the Ineos dealership and sign a big check for a Grenadier.

 

[elbekko]

I didn't mind the writing. It's not a dry news article, it's a forum post in blog format.

There are some interesting bits of insider info in there.

[Happyoldgit]

I am probably in the minority as I found it an enjoyable and somewhat tongue in cheek in places piece. I sympathise with some of his views.

[FridgeFreezer]

Having had what appeared to be a fairly stock light blue 90 on the "steely dan" wheels pull up next to me at the pumps on Sunday I have to say I agree with a lot of what he said too.