RGK Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 Hi, I've had some conflicting advise from two land rover parts suppliers/ specialists, i'm not going to mention them as not to undermine their businesses. Scenario: I own a defender 90 1986 (300tdi), and was thinking of upgrading the suspension without increase the height of the vehicle. Therefore my thoughts are to fit: +2 Big Bore Expedition Shocks Std height heavy load springs Dislocation cones allround Assuming over 5,000 miles per annum the 90 is used for 20% green laning, 30% traveling (tarmac & unsurfaced roads) & 50% normal road use. The vehicle will be full ladened for traveling, and lightened in normal use, however still carrying (3/4) roof rack & rear tub storage box, second spare, aux battery and second fuel tank. I'm concerned the suspension system indicated above may be too ridged/ hard for normal use or standard setup wont be able to hand the mean or gross weight increase?? Advice Source 1: recommend heavy load springs, uprated shocks, basically as described above. Advice Source 2: recommend using standard springs and shocks. on the basis that heavy load should be used when the vehicle is 'heavy' on tarmac roads. A lighter vehicle/ unladened off road wouldn't compress the springs thus loosing traction and on road would be too hard of a ride. Could anyone advise before i purchase the wrong setup. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 Your trying to do two things with one spring. Your choice is go for the light one and drive carefully when loaded or go for the heavy one and have a hard ride and less flex when empty. How do you find the springs now? Ok or too soft? If they're ok now no point putting heavier ones on. If they're ok when loaded but too bouncy maybe double shocks or adjustable shocks might help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blanco Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 If the two load conditions are so radically different then it sounds like a job for air-assist on the standard suspension?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 HD springs will be too stiff for unloaded road and off roading use, regular springs may struggle with the weight on trips. Likewise dampers. I'd recommend standard springs and helper air springs like those Matt Savage sells for heavy loads, and either adjustable dampers or a twin damper setup with standard dampers and a second pair that can be disconnected when not required. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 I had a chap waxing very lyrical about those inflatable spring helpers the other day, had them on his 130 which sometimes tows a 5th wheel trailer and other times runs around empty, he reckoned they were the dogs danglies... but he was also a 4x4 specialist who happened to supply & fit them, so you know... it doesn't sound like the worst idea ever though for your scenario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Standard height springs and shocks with anti roll bars- when you add you weight its going to be high up so extra rolly pollyness will need to be cancelled out. After the antiroll bars I would perhaps go for a higher end shock OME or Koni and save on the springs, standard landrover springs are only £15 each and can be swapped in minutes on the rear once your new shocks are on with plenty of coppaslip on the ends. Its a cheap way to find out what suits. Will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 You can't load the vehicle beyond it's max weight which the stock springs should be designed to take so I would've thought if anything the problem would be bouncy & rolly but should still be safe if driven within respect. Adjustable shocks should help get rid of the bouncy rollyness. Won't help with the back end down much I guess. I guess it depends how old and worn out it is too. A lot of people with pickups and 5th wheel caravans have those air assist springs with a little electric compressor which they often need for the trailer brakes anyway, I know of a farrier that runs them too due to the weight of his tools. He just pumped them up at home and ignored them in a typically agricultural way. Never run them myself but I'm a big fan of air suspension having driven lorries etc... so let us know how you get on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 A friend has the air helper bags on his 110 and really rates them. They stop the slightly saggy arse when it's fully loaded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 I would suggest a progressive rate springs. And forget what people say about hd, heavy load etc. if there are no numbers to back it up. To start of with you need to know what your car weighs, how much you are planning to load it up by, and what springs you have currently. Only then you can make a judgement about what rating will work with what you have, using the Redrover spring list: http://www.bilashakaflowers.com/LandroverSprings.htm As mentioned, progressive springs are good, so NTC8572 could be a good one or NRC9462/3. The progressive Old Man Emu springs listed are OME 762, 759 and 757. I personally would recommend OME for the springs, and shock absorbers as well. I have no experience with the airbags, but in the interest of keeping it simple, I would spend my money on OME. As said Anything that is explained in words with springs is hot air, you need numbers. Daan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 3 hours ago, Daan said: And forget what people say about hd, heavy load etc. if there are no numbers to back it up. ... As said Anything that is explained in words with springs is hot air, you need numbers. Those two phrases put it perfectly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGK Posted June 5, 2019 Author Share Posted June 5, 2019 BIG thank you to everyone. i could have spent a fortune and made a completely undriveable vehicle. I'm now confident that standard springs & shocks are the way forward. and in the event the rear gets a 'saggy arse' i'll install helper springs/ air bags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 20 hours ago, RGK said: BIG thank you to everyone. i could have spent a fortune and made a completely undriveable vehicle. I'm now confident that standard springs & shocks are the way forward. and in the event the rear gets a 'saggy arse' i'll install helper springs/ air bags. Nail and head. The magazines and Billing tat stands convince everyone that Heavy Duty means better or an upgrade, but usually that's the worst thing you can do - standard is generally best, and the Defender has decades of development and evolution in many roles to perfect the standard spec. HD is only an improvement if you're usually heavy, rather than just occasionally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 On 5/31/2019 at 3:13 PM, RGK said: Hi, I've had some conflicting advise from two land rover parts suppliers/ specialists, i'm not going to mention them as not to undermine their businesses. Scenario: I own a defender 90 1986 (300tdi), and was thinking of upgrading the suspension without increase the height of the vehicle. Therefore my thoughts are to fit: +2 Big Bore Expedition Shocks Std height heavy load springs Dislocation cones allround Assuming over 5,000 miles per annum the 90 is used for 20% green laning, 30% traveling (tarmac & unsurfaced roads) & 50% normal road use. The vehicle will be full ladened for traveling, and lightened in normal use, however still carrying (3/4) roof rack & rear tub storage box, second spare, aux battery and second fuel tank. I'm concerned the suspension system indicated above may be too ridged/ hard for normal use or standard setup wont be able to hand the mean or gross weight increase?? Advice Source 1: recommend heavy load springs, uprated shocks, basically as described above. Advice Source 2: recommend using standard springs and shocks. on the basis that heavy load should be used when the vehicle is 'heavy' on tarmac roads. A lighter vehicle/ unladened off road wouldn't compress the springs thus loosing traction and on road would be too hard of a ride. Could anyone advise before i purchase the wrong setup. Thanks neither are wrong.. There is no single perfect spring rate for a vehicle. It is largely down to driver preference. The ideal in this situation is to specify a dual or even triple rate spring. Easily doable, but it has to be calculated for YOUR car, and YOUR preference to get it right. Dampers are very much the same. you have stated you want an upgrade, and your general usage. When you say upgrade, what do you actually want to improve on? Body roll? Harshness? Wallowing? Axle shimmy? Articulation? As i'm sure you are already aware, dislocation cones won't directly affect the ride characteristics of a car on-road. It does however suggest you are searching for a lower roll stiffness to increase available articulation travel? This will increase body roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 Mikey’s last paragraph is especially relevant. For lanes and tracks, dislocation cones should not be necessary. With a light vehicle and heavy springs, you won,t get the articulation for them to dislocate, and since you’re carrying kit on the roof for big trips, you’ll likely need an anti-roll bar, which will further negate their need. Lanes and tracks seldom have surfaces that com anywhere near needing them; there for extreme like rock crawling and playing in old quarries, not for travelling anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 16 hours ago, discomikey said: There is no single perfect spring rate for a vehicle. It is largely down to driver preference. You need air suspension... like the new defender will have 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 I needed some versatile set up for my 110 Hard Top which carries quite a bit of stuff (extra fuel, water, gear, converted roof etc) and went for standard Original Parts LR springs all round, and basic Armstrong shocks, with AirLift bags in the rear. It works very well - I can run 'unladen' with the bags soft and its very pliable. Sticking the pressure up a bit makes it 'firmer' and reduces roll on corners, and if fully loaded - which includes bicycles hanging off the spare wheel on the back - I can pump up even more and it copes very well with the extra load without wallowing too much. Apart from the 'popping out' of the top plugs that retain the bags ( known defect and easily solved) the set up has worked really well for a relatively modest outlay. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPR Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 That's the problem with these new fangled, untested coil springs. Nobody has any idea. It's all finger-in-the-wind and maybe it'll work. Plus all the extra bits that nobody really understands. "Control arms" and the like... You don't want any of that gubbins. Leaf springs and a calloused arse are all you need! 😂 And possibly some dental work when your teeth rattle loose now and again... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Don't knock them, my daily drives have been leaf sprung for the last 15 years and they ride fine loaded or empty... once your used to it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 4 hours ago, RPR said: You don't want any of that gubbins. Leaf springs and a calloused arse are all you need! 😂 And possibly some dental work when your teeth rattle loose now and again... Preach, brother! Have to say, since fitting paras & decent shocks the 109 is not uncivilised in the suspension department - just uncivilised in numerous other ways Also, long time no see, welcome back @RPR! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 The bonus to leaf springs, is they allow you to carry extra paving slabs in all occasions, just on the off chance they might come in handy.. it's not to make it ride better.. honest 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 On 6/18/2019 at 9:37 AM, RPR said: That's the problem with these new fangled, untested coil springs. Nobody has any idea. It's all finger-in-the-wind and maybe it'll work. Plus all the extra bits that nobody really understands. "Control arms" and the like... You don't want any of that gubbins. Leaf springs and a calloused arse are all you need! 😂 And possibly some dental work when your teeth rattle loose now and again... Joking aside, the parabolics on my 109 are more comfortable when empty than the factory suspension on my wife's late 90XS, despite being HD three leaf front and four leaf rear, and seem to deal very well with heavy loads too (as you'd expect), though I did add a Marshall ambulance rear anti-roll bar to help with decent loads on the roof rack. Leaf springs are severely under-rated, but a lot of Japanese an US 4wd stuff still uses them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonimouse Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 I'd echo what Daan says... Figures are what you need For all his faults, RED 90 did the best guide to spring rates on the net - just google Land Rover spring specifications Work out your weights: You can't carry more than 75kgs on your roof rack, if you are in Europe Your max carrying load is 650kgs (so less 75kgs on the roof, is 575kgs inside, including your passengers You can't up-rate this without fun times at the DVSA I'm pretty sure max draw bar load is 150kgs Allow 2/3 to 1/3 load split I've used air bags in the rear springs - superb. My set original set are in a 3 door Range Rover, in the Sierra Nevada, doing 12k miles a year fully loaded and towing, mostly on gravel, ballast and rock tracks. I bought them in 2003. They've had a hard life. These days I use OME 764 Medium load on the rad of the Disco, slight lift from standard. I run fully loaded, empty and towing from 1 to 3.5 tonnes, on motorway to E class. Britpart sell OME , so you can get a deal The other option I'd suggest is RED/WHITE OE all round. These were developed for the old Police RRC, have a slight lift and are very good for what you want. Stick with the TF Big Bore shocks. TF used to be utter carp, but have improved immeasurably in the last couple of years. Twin shocks are a waste of time unless you get them perfectly set up and big bore or remote reservoir stuff does the same job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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