Hydro winch install musings

[steve200TDi]

1 hour ago, Ed Poore said:

To be honest @FridgeFreezer my TDS Goldfish has been more than adequate for recovery scenarios. I don't find it that tedious when re-spooling but it still has the stupidly thick (almost 3/4") rope that came on it secondhand off a forum member. It's had next to no maintenance in 10 years and has never let me down.

With recovery scenarios you get plenty of time to cool down the winch between pulls which is the main thing the electric ones require. I'm (vapour) considering a hydraulic one because I already have a hydraulic PTO pump on both the 110 and 6x6 and more than recoveries it's "forestry / farm" work where it's working all day.

So what you're say Ed is that you don't find the TDS Goldfish very T-D-S!........😂🤣

[toenden]

10 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

@toenden there may be a tad less space behind my wing than the average Defender - I already have my airbox/snorkel on the passenger side and need to fit a heater in there sometime too... plus the tyres are not quite standard

Eeeerh.... I somehow kind of forgot the spec's of the car 🤣

What about a costum front crossmember working as a oiltank, hyd.motor and winch fixer in one go? 

/mads

[Bowie69]

I think his crossmember is already Custom, and 50x50x4mm box 😛

[FridgeFreezer]

1 hour ago, Ed Poore said:

To be honest @FridgeFreezer my TDS Goldfish has been more than adequate for recovery scenarios.

But I don't own one of those, and I *do* own a PTO-driven hydraulic H14W. Let's not have this topic drift off into the weeds of all the other winches which happen to exist in the world. This thread is about the H14W that I WILL be fitting, and how best to achieve that.

I'm actually with Mike in that I really like winches like Daan's where the gearing is quite minimal and you can (with a bit of tinkering) directly match the winch speed to the wheel speed... but I don't have one of those either.

The H14 is a great strong winch which should be incredibly robust and pull the full 14k all day long with ease, so let's stick to that one.

After all, I do have an empty winch tray in the rear crossmember too, so who knows what could end up in there later

[Nonimouse]

8 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

But I don't own one of those, and I *do* own a PTO-driven hydraulic H14W. Let's not have this topic drift off into the weeds of all the other winches which happen to exist in the world. This thread is about the H14W that I WILL be fitting, and how best to achieve that.

I'm actually with Mike in that I really like winches like Daan's where the gearing is quite minimal and you can (with a bit of tinkering) directly match the winch speed to the wheel speed... but I don't have one of those either.

The H14 is a great strong winch which should be incredibly robust and pull the full 14k all day long with ease, so let's stick to that one.

After all, I do have an empty winch tray in the rear crossmember too, so who knows what could end up in there later

Makes sense to me. What's really nice, is you don't have to match wheel speed. An HS14 is simply a strong, but relatievly gentle winch. It's rated to 14K at the factory, rell pull is probably about 18-20. Pulley block it and the sky is the limit. They were (and are still) very popular in the Utility game, Often used in conjunction with shearlegs to lif some blooming big kit. Perfect control helps. Speed variation can also be controlled by a variable flow block. And so much cable! Much better than a mechanical winch

Drawbacks - weight.

Fridge. I think I have a couple of tanks left over form the last Hiab Project. I'll drop down to the farm at the weekend. I suggested Badger's aux tank, becuase it will fit in the front of the rear wheel wells

[FridgeFreezer]

23 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

Drawbacks - weight.

Compared to the modded 8274's out there, by the time you've added batteries / 24v alternator or whatever I don't think there's much in it - the GP and RED ones quote ~55kg bare which is on par with an H14 + hydro motor.

[miketomcat]

Personally I'd fit it as is try it and see what you don't like and what you can live with. Drive assist is nice but I doubt you'll need it as much as you think (you do need to be better at winch gear placement without drive assist).

Mike

[FridgeFreezer]

1 hour ago, miketomcat said:

Drive assist is nice but I doubt you'll need it as much as you think

I am not getting hung up on it, it would just be nice if I didn't need to be in 4th/5th to work the winch at a sensible rate hence crank drive to de-couple winch from wheels / having to faff with transfer box levers while off-road.

TBH the 109 is rarely stuck so I'm mostly thinking of marshalling situations.

[Nonimouse]

2 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Compared to the modded 8274's out there, by the time you've added batteries / 24v alternator or whatever I don't think there's much in it - the GP and RED ones quote ~55kg bare which is on par with an H14 + hydro motor.

I'm not arguing about this, at all. But I'm talking practical winches. A modded 8274 is like a citroen Saxo with a supercharger...

[FridgeFreezer]

6 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

A modded 8274 is like a citroen Saxo with a supercharger...

I don't have one of those either.

[Nonimouse]

9 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I don't have one of those either.

No...

[geoffbeaumont]

5 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

I'm not arguing about this, at all. But I'm talking practical winches. A modded 8274 is like a citroen Saxo with a supercharger...

Though that does sound like a lot of fun...

[FridgeFreezer]

3 hours ago, geoffbeaumont said:

Though that does sound like a lot of fun...

I do have a supercharged Mini and I can confirm it is a lot of fun, dangerously so.

[Daan]

I have not replied yet, as my knowledge of hydraulics borders on clueless basically. This is for me also a reason not to have a hydraulic winch.

Rather than telling you to buy a different winch, I will share my knowledge of prop shafts in this kind of application. The prop shafts I use in my PTO setup are derived from a used Freelander prop shaft, a new MGB prop shaft and an industrial universal joint. They all are based around the SAE1140 U/J standard of prop shafts, which are used by many cars:

https://www.driveshaftsolutions.co.uk/collections/universal-joints/products/uj1003-universal-joint

It is a good size for the power you are looking to transmit

To connect the freelander propshaft to the PTO, I had an industrial universal joint made up with a 7/8" hole with a keyway, in the SAE 1140 shape. I used a joke of this to connect the Superwinch PTO (mine has a 7/8" shaft coming out) to the Freelander bar shaft:

From there on it uses a freelander shaft for a bearing and I welded this to an MGB prop shaft. The MGB prop has a slider joint which you will need as well.

So I'd say an MGB prop shaft is a good start for your connection between the engine and pump. Just shorten it to what you need

Not sure what the pouly on your engine looks like or whether you could fit the MGB 4 bolt flange to bolt it on. I might have the flange floating about somewhere, which I could measure for you (If I find it..).

The pump end, a joke from an industrial UJ with the correct fitting in 1140 size should allow you to mount the UJ to the MGB prop.

To source the MGB prop, I'd say buy a new one, they are not expensive, and if you use a junk jard one, the UJ cups are staked so it is not sevice able, let alone swapping jokes out.

A lot of cars do have not serviceable U/Js.

 

Since we talk numbers on winches, my winch has a 9:1 ratio and weighs 25kg. The bumper I made for it weighs 12kg:

Regards,

 

Daan

[FridgeFreezer]

Thanks Daan - my PTO is the stubby rear-facing one specifically designed to mount an SAE flanged pump directly, so trying to adapt that to send drive forward would be a non-starter.

As for props - interesting info, I'll have to measure up and see what I've got room for, it would be nice to use something semi-standard / using OEM bits rather than than custom but I've not really got that far - this thread is still very much a "vapour" build (we haven't had one here for a while after all!)

I know the mini-prop on Mouse was very small, the UJ's were maybe 50mm across and the shaft maybe 30mm diameter although it's a very long time ago.

With all that said - I'm seriously also looking at whether I can directly drive from the crank to the winch using some sort of clutch (bike/ATV/industrial) and maybe a chain drive (worked well on Petal's hydro pump), only issue is forward/reverse but I'm seeing cheap ATV forward/N/reverse gearboxes all over eBay for ~£150 rated to ~13hp which is in the ballpark for experimentation. Would cut out a LOT of plumbing, although at the expense of a bit of control perhaps.

[sean f]

Turning a drive the other direction is not that difficult, you can buy 90deg boxes off the shelf although you would need some one with more knowledge than me to work out the torque and size needed, with the gearing down on the winch probable not that big.

Couplings to suit can be bought and machined quite easily too, bracketry required would need to be made and fitted as well which would probable get in the realms of not worth it.

The one in the picture was one of several on a modified HGV (carnival float) to operate the steering, rather than use keyed couplings they had drilled the ends of bars so they slid over the pins of the gearboxes and then drilled through the lot and used 4mm roll pins through that to hold it together and provide drive, you can see how accurate they weren't, it developed quite a bit of play, how it passed any sort of test at any time to drive on the road is beyond me. It was all rebuilt with the correct rated couplings and replacement drive pins for the boxes.

Mind you what is possible and what is worth the effort and cost is a different issue, in your case I expect running the pump off the pto and finding a way to route the pipes out of the way is probable going to prove much simpler.

 

[FridgeFreezer]

5 minutes ago, sean f said:

which would probable get in the realms of not worth it.

I'm not so sure - crank drive straight into a standard dog clutch and small ATV reversing gearbox mounted on the X-member with a sprocket, chain drive to transmit power 18" to the left into a sprocket on a spud shaft into the winch... feels like it could just work, and the chain-drive thing proved very cheap & robust on Petal.

[FridgeFreezer]

I mean, £100 for a 13hp reversing box it's tempting to have a go:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/155041278215

[elbekko]

@Escape had a bunch of issues running a pump off a chain drive on this 90, but IIRC that was mainly due to the pump clutch?

[Daan]

3 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I mean, £100 for a 13hp reversing box it's tempting to have a go:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/155041278215

I'd say it is a bit mickey mouse for what you are trying to do, but it is not a bad idea. Koenig produced a crank driven winch that was like this:

[Escape]

As I've been mentioned a couple of times, I should probably chime in. 🙂

I'm a big fan of hydraulic winches, I had one on my 90, that was transferred to the P38 when I sold it and of course Mouse had front and rear hydraulic winches. 
I always used an engine driven pump. It took some effort to get it right on the 90. First we tried a V-belt with an electromagnetic clutch. Work OK, as long as the belt was dry. Otherwise it would slip, despite decent tension. We then upgraded to a chain drive. The run on the TD5 was quite long and finding a suitable tensioner was a problem. I ended up using a roller from an AC belt, it worked but wouldn't last long.
The clutch never worked properly after the V-pulley was replaced by a chain sprocket. So we tried to design a dog clutch ourselves. It wasn't pretty, but did the job. Until halfway through the first stage in Ladoga, when it failed while I was winching a Russian crew out of a river. They did give me a very nice bottle of wodka the next year, but it meant struggling through the rest of the tour as we weren't able to fix it. In hindsight we should have had a backup plan to just tun the pump continuously or take off the belt when needed.

When I transferred the winch to the P38 I used a smaller pump, again with an electromagnetic clutch but this time with a poly V belt. That never gave me any trouble, with the smaller pump it was a bit slower (still fast enough) and required less power. For my project P38 I've chosen a pump size in between, 14cc. If I remember correctly the Defender had a 26cc pump and the other P38 only 8 or 10cc. Time will tell how good it performs, I'm pretty confident about the belt drive and a little more speed will mean I can keep the engine at idle.
I've always went for an engine driven pump as opposed to PTO driven to allow drive assist. I've found having the wheels turning helps a lot to get over obstacles or break suction when stuck in the mud. And just dip the clutch when it's not helping or not needed. Not so easy with a PTO drive.

If you have the room for a direct crank drive, that sounds like the best plan, no belts to worry about. And a dogclutch is probably more robust than an electric one. I too have mused about variable displacement pumps, but it never seemed worth it for such a small install. Also, if the pump automatically increases displacement if the load lightens, you'd have something similar to an electric winch. That could diminish the  control (of feeling of control) hydraulics normally offer if speed is independent of load.

The practical side, hydraulic plumbing gets expensive quickly, so it's worth putting some effort in the design to minimize hose lengths (and make sure you get things first time right). I've used smallish tanks and never had the feeling the oil was getting hot, even without a cooler. A metal tank exposed to some airflow will get rid of some heat anyway. And while I appreciate the advantage of manual valves for fine control, the price and complexity of fitting them always kept me off. Solenoid valves are typically on/off but can easily be operated by wireless remote. I think that will prove very useful when loading a non-running car on the trailer without assistance.

Whatever you decide, I'll be following this thread with great interest!

Filip

Edited to add I've used a Milemarker winch on all installs except Mouse. The high speed did get used often enough, both for quick respooling and for light duty pulls. What I'd really like to add is a remote freespool, to allow the winchbitch to take out line easily and not having to return to engage the gears to start winching, as that can be done from the driver's seat.

[Bowie69]

Pondering all that, don't you already effectively have a variable displacement pump, controlled by your right foot?

Or are you worried you won't get enough speed for re-spooling/spooling out?

[FridgeFreezer]

38 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Pondering all that, don't you already effectively have a variable displacement pump, controlled by your right foot?

Regular hydro pumps have a fairly narrow happy RPM range, and I'd rather be controlling the winch by valve block alone than having to juggle engine speed too. Chances are I'll fit an idle-up air valve to the engine or possibly let the ECU control the idle speed so it just sits at (say) 1000rpm solidly.

@Escape thanks for the good info - I think the H14 being worm drive skews a lot of the speed calculations much as @miketomcat found, respooling could be a real chore.

[Escape]

The pumps I've used are happy from 500 to 3000rpm up to 5000rpm for the smaller ones. So the same rpm range as a V8 when using a pulley of similar size as the crank pulley. I usually had the engine idling, except on hard pulls when I'd feather the throttle to around 1000rpm. Having MS do that automatically would be sweet!

It does allow you to control the speed with your right foot, something we're all used to anyway. 🙂
I remember one occasion where I was winching a Freelander 2 up a sandy slope. One of the bystanders commented the winch was pretty slow. I didn't hear it, but my co gave me a nod to speed up. Going from 600 to 2000rpm silenced the critics, the Milemarker didn't break a sweat. 😁

Filip

[Bowie69]

I sense a remotely operated throttle, either mechanical at the front bumper, or maybe via a 'remote control box of things' meaning you can do everything from afar