Hydro winch install musings

[muddy]

Nothing much to add other than unless you are going to be making funky steel lines ultra compact is very difficult with flexible hoses, maybe go @Daan style and start hunting round for those nooks and crevices to house a small oil tank, a 1-11/2" feed hose will hold a good amount of Oil. 

[mickeyw]

On a LWB station wagons I've seen oil tanks under the driver's seat.

@CwazyWabbit's 110 has the tank under the rear wing, where the exhaust box is but opposite side of the truck. This does require a lot of hose distance, which in turn adds cooling capacity 🙂

[FridgeFreezer]

4 hours ago, mickeyw said:

On a LWB station wagons I've seen oil tanks under the driver's seat.

That was part of the kit I bought, although I think I passed it on some years ago as I didn't think I'd use it (it hung down a lot)... also my under-seat box is full of fuel pumps and solenoids and the like so maybe not

[landroversforever]

The PO hydro setup on my 90 had the tank sat vertically behind the driver.... fairly tall, narrow, tank.

[Ed Poore]

Plug the holes in the chassis and use it as a hydraulic tank.

[Stellaghost]

58 minutes ago, Ed Poore said:

Plug the holes in the chassis and use it as a hydraulic tank.

Then fit a massive filter to take out all the chassis internal carp.....

Here's me thinking you got wiser with age.......

But not in your case @Ed Poore it would seem....lol Regards Stephen 

[Daan]

No more chassis rust!

 

[bishbosh]

On 9/30/2022 at 12:12 AM, FridgeFreezer said:

 

 

any hydraulical experts care to wade in....

Please tell me you did that on purpose.....🙄

[Ed Poore]

5 hours ago, Stellaghost said:

Then fit a massive filter to take out all the chassis internal carp.....

Here's me thinking you got wiser with age.......

But not in your case @Ed Poore it would seem....lol Regards Stephen 

It's just a clever way to get all the carp out of the chassis 

[Stellaghost]

7 minutes ago, Ed Poore said:

It's just a clever way to get all the carp out of the chassis 

And make the vehicle 3 times heavier than Sid.........

Regards Stephen

 

[Ed Poore]

Don't need to fill it. Just one chassis leg would do, possibly alternate to ensure both get the correct treatment.

[uninformed]

Just remember the further away the tank is from the pump the more restriction in the pipe work. Pipe size is determined by a few factors, length is one of them. 

[FridgeFreezer]

19 hours ago, bishbosh said:

Please tell me you did that on purpose.....🙄

Of course! As Daan pointed out in another thread, we've got standards round here you know!

@Ed Poore top marks for lateral thinking but not 100% sure there's a filtration system within the same orbit as my budget that would deal with the amount of crud that must be in my chassis by now

The rock sliders might be a better idea, but I still think a small tank somewhere is going to be the way, especially if I can do as Adrian suggests and use a variable pump that doesn't heat the oil too much when idling.

[Stellaghost]

3 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Of course! As Daan pointed out in another thread, we've got standards round here you know!

@Ed Poore top marks for lateral thinking but not 100% sure there's a filtration system within the same orbit as my budget that would deal with the amount of crud that must be in my chassis by now

The rock sliders might be a better idea, but I still think a small tank somewhere is going to be the way, especially if I can do as Adrian suggests and use a variable pump that doesn't heat the oil too much when idling.

Just shout if you want a hand knocking a tank up regards Stephen 

[Nonimouse]

21 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

That was part of the kit I bought, although I think I passed it on some years ago as I didn't think I'd use it (it hung down a lot)... also my under-seat box is full of fuel pumps and solenoids and the like so maybe not

That aux fuel tank of Badger's would do the job

[FridgeFreezer]

1 hour ago, Stellaghost said:

Just shout if you want a hand knocking a tank up regards Stephen 

Thanks for the offer - given I bought myself a TIG set and did a welding course not so long ago I feel like I should probably at least attempt my own

 

1 hour ago, Nonimouse said:

That aux fuel tank of Badger's would do the job

It would end up all the way at the back which would give a crank-mounted pump a hell of a challenge if you're sat on a steep hill...

7 hours ago, uninformed said:

Just remember the further away the tank is from the pump the more restriction in the pipe work. Pipe size is determined by a few factors, length is one of them. 

Indeed - insert relevant electrical current flow analogy here I'm hoping I may be able to squeeze something in near the front, but from my vague recollections of working on Mouse & Petal the tank sizing is drive somewhat by the pump & motor flow etc. so until I work those out / see what I find in the scrapyard I won't really know how the plumbing is going to play out.

[steve b]

How much room do you have in the front wings for a tank? HGV air tanks come to mind - 20 to 25 litres ?

 A couple of other thoughts - most pumps have a max rpm and exceeding it can cause cavitation. I guess a rev limit in your electronical engine control prog could be added triggered by a pump engaged limit switch ? 

Most of the factory designed hyd. set ups use rigid steel pipe for the feed and return lines which do save space and look pro too .

Steve

[miketomcat]

Old fire extinguishers work well for tanks to.

Mike

[FridgeFreezer]

Steve - I've got a bit, I'd have to do a proper measure up.

Max RPM-wise most I've seen say ~3k rpm and when winching / recovering I'm pretty unlikely to exceed that, the V8 is all torque so no need to bounce it off the redline anyway.

Rigid steel pipes for long runs are great as they give a surprising amount of cooling too, some OEM transmission/fuel coolers are just a loop of steel pipe.

[toenden]

I am not 100% sure about the innerwings on a series, but on my defender, there is quite some space behind the front light (although the welding task might get bigger as it is a bit ackward shaped 🙂)

I have fitted an entire airfiltercannister and connections from a 2,5 n/a in one of the sides and as it is round there is still a lot of excess space. That would get the tank as close to a crankmount pump as it gets. 

If I was building a hyd. Winch I would only be looking at a crankmounted pumps. The other ways work, but I feel that less belts, clutches, chains or gearboxes seems like the right solution as well as the ability to wheelassist. 

Regarding the propshaft, I have in the past without problems used small agricultural pto shafts and now run a cutdown (approx 12 cm) Suzuki sj410 front prop. It is however on a 300 tdi so not quite the revrange of a mighty v8... although it is and is used above your 3k... 😇

/Mads

Edited October 4, 2022 by toenden
Forgot the propshaft part.

[FridgeFreezer]

@toenden there may be a tad less space behind my wing than the average Defender - I already have my airbox/snorkel on the passenger side and need to fit a heater in there sometime too... plus the tyres are not quite standard

[B reg 90]

The other consideration is what your desired winch performance is. The 'specification' for my 'not yet finished' system was borne from a discussion on the way home from a TAY trophy event in either 2005 or 2006. We had come second (with Bob Seaman and John Jennings), heavily assisted by my superwinch 525 PTO winch. We think we did 60 winches per day on the 2 day event. I used to run that winch in 5th gear as fast as I could - It was way faster than an 8274 and would do high speed full load pulls. It did however have a number of disadvantages like, high drive shaft vibration, glacial pay out speed (fixed with an air operated freespool) and a total inability to winch and drive at roughly the same speed - the wheels would spin at > 3 x winch speed in low 1st. The later was the killer. No issues if you are in the Argyll forest and have 100's of trees to winch from but bugger all use if you have limited anchor points. We kind of fixed that by building a massive ground anchor. But still it was fundamentally limiting.

So, I decided I wanted 8274 unloaded speeds at full load on the bottom wrap. That means 45 - 50 HP to the winch. 

 

Once you start looking at this you realize that with an electric winch you just tickle the throttle to drive the wheels and all the winch power comes from the batteries. If you want a hydraulic system you need to be revving the engine, to say 1500 rpm, to get the torque required to drive the wheels and put 50 HP to your winch. However, the 1500 rpm engine speed increases the winch speed required too match the wheel speed no matter what diff ratio you go for. Basically, the drive train gearing is OOM 3x too high to allow you to drive the wheels at the same speed as the winch - you need an Ashcroft underdrive to make this work. These days maybe there is an atlas 4 speed option that would do the job. Even then you are putting serious power to the winch. You can either choose:

1/. low pressure really high flow rate, this causes:

• Installation/packaging difficulties (hose bend radius's, massive pumps, massive hydraulic motors, etc) - I'm talking WAY bigger than mile marker stuff.
• Massive valve blocks
• high weight because:
  • Large volume of oil
  • Pump needs to be big
  • hydraulic motor needs to be massive to get the speed you need at the winch (with an H14 48:1 gear ratio). This is then impractical to fasten to the winch

2/. High pressure, low flow rate:

• Small(er) pump
• Small(er) hydraulic motor that will realistically attach to the H14
• Smaller pipes/hoes
• Lower weight
• ££ expensive components

The killer for option 2/. is the costs. However, when you go much above OOM 150 BarG you jump to hydraulic equipment that can take 400 Bar. So you might as well use it's capacity/capability if you go for it.

 

What would I do differently if I were starting again? - I'd buy an electric winch off Jim and fit that. It will be cheaper and simpler. When I started my system design and buying parts Jim had only managed to make a prototype 8274 free spool top housing. Electric winches had not 'come of age' in terms of competition performance. Now a days don't waste your cash - go for a high-performance electric winch.

 

Adrian

[FridgeFreezer]

@B reg 90 another very informative post!

All very interesting and some good points - but my use-case is not winch challenges, it's occasional self-recovery and marshalling so needs to be very reliable, pull like a train and not be *too* tediously slow when re-spooling.

I don't have the sort of money people throw at decent spec GP or RED winches, I figure I have most of the ingredients for this already and with a bit of luck / careful scrounging / a fair bit of DIY fabrication I can probably some up with something that does what I need pretty well for a reasonable amount less cash.

Just glancing a RED's site, a 10,000lb Hornet 2 is ~£2.5k and that's without any bells and whistles, or any batteries & wiring etc. which I figure you could easily plonk another 1k down on without too much effort.

[Ed Poore]

To be honest @FridgeFreezer my TDS Goldfish has been more than adequate for recovery scenarios. I don't find it that tedious when re-spooling but it still has the stupidly thick (almost 3/4") rope that came on it secondhand off a forum member. It's had next to no maintenance in 10 years and has never let me down.

With recovery scenarios you get plenty of time to cool down the winch between pulls which is the main thing the electric ones require. I'm (vapour) considering a hydraulic one because I already have a hydraulic PTO pump on both the 110 and 6x6 and more than recoveries it's "forestry / farm" work where it's working all day.

[miketomcat]

Having used both a PTO 525 and ep9/X9 for everything fridge does I'd say the advantages of one are the disadvantages of the other. If I had the choice I'd build a PTO winch like daans for the ibex with a normal PTO winch as a close second. 

Mike