Hydro winch install musings

[simonr]

18 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

How much power do you realistically think you'll be putting through it?

Based on Electric winches, the electrical input is about 5kW per motor.  Series wound motors are hoplessly inefficient under load - so you are unlikely to see more than 2.5kW (3.35Hp) mechanical power into the which.  

So, the power you 'need' is likely to be less than 10Hp.

 

[Ed Poore]

One thing about hydraulic is that it doesn't just provide the winch, add a couple of quick connects to the winch instead of direct couplings and then you've got a double acting spool for external equipment.

Probably less useful for @FridgeFreezer but think log splitter etc.

[B reg 90]

WRT worm drives being one way or self braking. 
They can be but it depends on the gear ratio and if they are stationary or turning.

Stationary - the lower the gear ratio the more likely it will spin if loaded in reverse (load on winch line,  no drive to winch). This doesn’t happen on a H14 (48:1 ratio), but might on Daan’s 9:1 winch

 

Under load - a worm gear is very unusual in that it has a sliding motion between the gears. All other gears have a rotating motion. The sliding means that when stationary the oil ‘squeezes’ out and you get high friction between the metal surfaces. Start turning the gear set ( with a reverse load, I.e hanging you 4x4 off the winch), then oil gets between the gears as they start turning, friction goes down and the gears will transfer load in reverse. 
I have done the gear calc for an H14 - they are only self braking in reverse under light reverse load. They will not self brake under heavy load.

hope this is of interest 

 

adrian

[Daan]

56 minutes ago, toenden said:

Here! The shaft isn't attached, but I think you get the picture. Please let me know if touch need a picture of It attached. 

/mads

I hadn't realized you grafted a koenig crank driven winch onto a defender! like it a lot. is this a completely mechanical setup or is there hydraulics involved?

The sizing of the shaft looks about right too. If you manage too stall a 300 tdi with the winch, that gives an indication of the torques we talk about. A V8 will be stalling much easier at low revs, so there needs to be plenty of beef in the drive train.

Daan

[landroversforever]

33 minutes ago, B reg 90 said:

WRT worm drives being one way or self braking. 
They can be but it depends on the gear ratio and if they are stationary or turning.

Stationary - the lower the gear ratio the more likely it will spin if loaded in reverse (load on winch line,  no drive to winch). This doesn’t happen on a H14 (48:1 ratio), but might on Daan’s 9:1 winch

 

Under load - a worm gear is very unusual in that it has a sliding motion between the gears. All other gears have a rotating motion. The sliding means that when stationary the oil ‘squeezes’ out and you get high friction between the metal surfaces. Start turning the gear set ( with a reverse load, I.e hanging you 4x4 off the winch), then oil gets between the gears as they start turning, friction goes down and the gears will transfer load in reverse. 
I have done the gear calc for an H14 - they are only self braking in reverse under light reverse load. They will not self brake under heavy load.

hope this is of interest 

 

adrian

Superwonch changed the gear angles on at least the Huskies to reduce the overrun and increasing the braking when paying out under load. 

[Stellaghost]

@FridgeFreezer I have this if it's any good, pump and control box/ lever off a Wingate dumper tipping mechanism, obviously I would clean it up if you wanted it posting down

Pump overall length is 51/2", pump body is 3" and is gear driven

regards Stephen 

[FridgeFreezer]

29 minutes ago, Stellaghost said:

@FridgeFreezer I have this if it's any good

Thanks Stephen, but I already have a fair collection of "standard" gear pumps & motors (if there's any great difference between a pump and motor?) - the real "win" would be a variable-displacement / vane pump but as Simon says, those tend to be huge and/or expensive.

Quote

I would bet someone makes one with both combined into a single 'lump'.

That's what I'm betting too - just need to keep eyes out on the interwebs for gearboxes / transfer boxes and see what comes by.

 

@muddy - I think 1:1 to 2:1 ratio or thereabouts is mostly fine, if you run the numbers from Miketomcat's shaft-driven one, winching in 2nd/3rd (~2:1, ~1.3:1) and re-spooling in 4th/5th (1:1, ~0.7:1). Using maybe 1.5:1 sounds reasonable as with no long driveshaft to account for there's no barrier to upping the RPM to spool in faster - on the shaft-drive drop-PTO the shaft is something like 5' of fairly skinny steel rod so gets out of balance / wobbles quite easily with a few RPM's.

Thanks to everyone else for the great info - this is turning into a very fruitful thread whichever way I end up going.

 

[Daan]

3 hours ago, B reg 90 said:

WRT worm drives being one way or self braking. 
They can be but it depends on the gear ratio and if they are stationary or turning.

Stationary - the lower the gear ratio the more likely it will spin if loaded in reverse (load on winch line,  no drive to winch). This doesn’t happen on a H14 (48:1 ratio), but might on Daan’s 9:1 winch

 

Under load - a worm gear is very unusual in that it has a sliding motion between the gears. All other gears have a rotating motion. The sliding means that when stationary the oil ‘squeezes’ out and you get high friction between the metal surfaces. Start turning the gear set ( with a reverse load, I.e hanging you 4x4 off the winch), then oil gets between the gears as they start turning, friction goes down and the gears will transfer load in reverse. 
I have done the gear calc for an H14 - they are only self braking in reverse under light reverse load. They will not self brake under heavy load.

hope this is of interest 

 

adrian

Yes, I can back drive the winch by hand, so I f try to rotate the drum, the shaft spins. To make it legal for international comps, there is a disc brake on the winch shaft, which is on a one way sprag clutch; So the caliper is always on, but it only works when the winch spools out. However, in reality, I hardly ever used this.

The self brake problem is  over rated, I think. On the last event I did in Wales I had this conversation the evening before it started, and there was a punch on top of a vertical hill. The consensus was that it you cannot do it with your winch and everyone came over when I attempted it. I did the usual; winch up with the wheels assisting to get me up. At the top, when I was near the punch, press the clutch and the brake pedal. It stopped. What people don't seem to grasp is that if you apply the footbrake when drive assisting, there is connection between the winch and the wheels. So even if the wheels would not be able to hold the car, the winch is now also braked via the prop shaft being held by the rest of the drivetrain.

So we took the punch, selected reverse, put the transfer box in neutral, and did a controlled decent on the winch via engine braking. No drama.

I always use wheel assist when self recovery winching; with the 9:1 ratio, the speed of the wheels is around a factor 6x the speed of the winch. Speeding up the winch to wheel speed would effectively mean winchng in 5th gear which would give me very little control. Right now, it is 1st gear for controlled, heavy pulls, and second gear for fast light winchng. 

As Toenden pointed out, you would use wheel assist at tickover, 1st low, and the engine cannot even deliver the power to the winch to do this.

To me, the winch assist problem does not exist; even in in Russia in the swamps, where it was predicted the wheel assist would not work due to too much wheel spin, i never had a problem with it. Once you break through the top cover of the swamp, you are unlikely to get it back on top.

I think for an 8 day winch event with very big pulls, it eventually comes down to reliability of the winch.

In Croatia, on the last day there were 8 cars at the start line (from 32 starters). Majority of cars had retired due to failed gearboxes (automatic) and burn out winches. Even hydraulic winches I have seen failing in this kind of event. The one I know of to get hydraulics winches to work for a long prolonged time is Jez.

So to me, what I have works, and I have no intention of changing it.

Daan

 

[Stellaghost]

19 minutes ago, Daan said:

 

So to me, what I have works, and I have no intention of changing it.

Daan

 

Great believer in this

 "If it's not broke don't fix it"

Regards Stephen

[Stellaghost]

This might be helpful if you need to make a drive shaft regards Stephen

 

 

[B reg 90]

4 hours ago, Daan said:

Yes, I can back drive the winch by hand, so I f try to rotate the drum, the shaft spins. To make it legal for international comps, there is a disc brake on the winch shaft, which is on a one way sprag clutch; So the caliper is always on, but it only works when the winch spools out. However, in reality, I hardly ever used this.

The self brake problem is  over rated, I think. On the last event I did in Wales I had this conversation the evening before it started, and there was a punch on top of a vertical hill. The consensus was that it you cannot do it with your winch and everyone came over when I attempted it. I did the usual; winch up with the wheels assisting to get me up. At the top, when I was near the punch, press the clutch and the brake pedal. It stopped. What people don't seem to grasp is that if you apply the footbrake when drive assisting, there is connection between the winch and the wheels. So even if the wheels would not be able to hold the car, the winch is now also braked via the prop shaft being held by the rest of the drivetrain.

So we took the punch, selected reverse, put the transfer box in neutral, and did a controlled decent on the winch via engine braking. No drama.

I always use wheel assist when self recovery winching; with the 9:1 ratio, the speed of the wheels is around a factor 6x the speed of the winch. Speeding up the winch to wheel speed would effectively mean winchng in 5th gear which would give me very little control. Right now, it is 1st gear for controlled, heavy pulls, and second gear for fast light winchng. 

As Toenden pointed out, you would use wheel assist at tickover, 1st low, and the engine cannot even deliver the power to the winch to do this.

To me, the winch assist problem does not exist; even in in Russia in the swamps, where it was predicted the wheel assist would not work due to too much wheel spin, i never had a problem with it. Once you break through the top cover of the swamp, you are unlikely to get it back on top.

I think for an 8 day winch event with very big pulls, it eventually comes down to reliability of the winch.

In Croatia, on the last day there were 8 cars at the start line (from 32 starters). Majority of cars had retired due to failed gearboxes (automatic) and burn out winches. Even hydraulic winches I have seen failing in this kind of event. The one I know of to get hydraulics winches to work for a long prolonged time is Jez.

So to me, what I have works, and I have no intention of changing it.

Daan

 

Daan,

I should have clarified that the comment was aimed at hydraulic winches where the overrun issue can cause cavitation in the winch motor. 
It’s not an issue on a mechanically driven winch

 

agree with you observations on auto boxes and electric winches

 

Adrian 

[FridgeFreezer]

Well I dug into the archives and found this;

 

This was the setup on Mouse - it proved pretty reliable & robust, as you can see there's not much shaft to worry about vibrations either. There's a lot to like about this.

[toenden]

20 hours ago, Daan said:

I hadn't realized you grafted a koenig crank driven winch onto a defender! like it a lot. is this a completely mechanical setup or is there hydraulics involved?

Completely mechanical/std (almost, but that is not for this thread) 🙂

I was only trying to point out, that short shafts are sourceable and can shift SOME @Bowie69 power and rpm 😉🤣

As I said, mine is a shortened sj410 front prop. The great thing is, that the boltpattern fits the four bolts in the pulley and there is a hole in the middle so the centerbolt is able to stay as per original as well.

/mads

[Ed Poore]

Another good source of short prop shafts are dumper trucks. They typically have a very short prop between the gearbox and the dropbox that goes to the axles.

I think the one on my Dad's is about 4-6" long but not sure they all have a slider - perhaps minimal to account for engine mount flex only.

[Bowie69]

... and of course D&F will make anything you want.

It's remarkable how small the bolts can be on propshafts, e.g. think of what a decent engine in low first is putting through the four bolts holding your normal props to the axle flange.

[FridgeFreezer]

35 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

It's remarkable how small the bolts can be on propshafts, e.g. think of what a decent engine in low first is putting through the four bolts holding your normal props to the axle flange.

Isn't it the case that the bolts are just clamping the flanges to each other and the friction between flange faces themselves is what's transmitting the torque?

[Bowie69]

Just now, FridgeFreezer said:

Isn't it the case that the bolts are just clamping the flanges to each other and the friction between flange faces themselves is what's transmitting the torque?

Absolutely, and also why fine pitch bolts are normally used for extra clamping, but still, quick calc gives some astounding figures:

~200lbft from engine * 3.32 (first gear LT77) * 3.22 (low box in LT230) = 2138 lbs/ft.

Based on that even an SJ prop is way overkill for what you want!

 

[cackshifter]

Following this with some interest, all good stuff. A couple of points, @simonr I think suggested it would only need about 3 hp, but a poly vee belt should be able to transmit that on reasonable sized pulleys- I suspect it'll be rather more. I would be careful esp after @Ed Poore's experiences with snapped cranks; the power you can take from the nose may be quite limited (years back at Leyland there were problems for concrete mixers which had a nose driven hydraulic pump to drive the mixer) and the mass of the extra gubbins on the nose of the crank may not be good.

The engine moves a surprising amount on its mounts, so I wondered if a pump could be mounted on brackets maybe cantilevered from the sump, then it could all move with the engine, and you could drive it through some short coupling with rubber isolation from the crank so the pulley could do its job. There are small couplings like a dog clutch to handle minor misalignments. Presumably you would bolt whatever coupling  to the pulley centre with some kind of spacer over the crank bolt head to the 4 M8 holes, and it would become part of the crank mass unless decoupled.

[Daan]

28 minutes ago, cackshifter said:

Following this with some interest, all good stuff. A couple of points, @simonr I think suggested it would only need about 3 hp, but a poly vee belt should be able to transmit that on reasonable sized pulleys- I suspect it'll be rather more. I would be careful esp after @Ed Poore's experiences with snapped cranks; the power you can take from the nose may be quite limited (years back at Leyland there were problems for concrete mixers which had a nose driven hydraulic pump to drive the mixer) and the mass of the extra gubbins on the nose of the crank may not be good.

The engine moves a surprising amount on its mounts, so I wondered if a pump could be mounted on brackets maybe cantilevered from the sump, then it could all move with the engine, and you could drive it through some short coupling with rubber isolation from the crank so the pulley could do its job. There are small couplings like a dog clutch to handle minor misalignments. Presumably you would bolt whatever coupling  to the pulley centre with some kind of spacer over the crank bolt head to the 4 M8 holes, and it would become part of the crank mass unless decoupled.

I think you need to look more at 50hp, at a guess. If you manage to stall a 300 tdi, that takes some doing.

Some form of vibration damper between the engine and pump would certainly be good. Also, the keyway in the front pouly is going to take all the load, so make sure that is in a good state, they have a habit of wearing out on 300s. Check what v8s are like on this @FridgeFreezer.

[FridgeFreezer]

1 hour ago, cackshifter said:

I think suggested it would only need about 3 hp, but a poly vee belt should be able to transmit that on reasonable sized pulleys- I suspect it'll be rather more

In the early days of milemarkers they used an uprated PAs pump on a polyvee and they always seemed to be slow and struggle a bit, so yeah I'm banking on a fair bit more than that and likely over-building it based on whatever bits are available for the right price.

If I can incorporate a cush joint or torque damper into the drive I will, just to give everything an easier time. I've not heard anything about V8 cranks being weak and the 4.0 / 4.6 got bigger journals so I'm hoping they're the most robust of the bunch.

As for movement, the photo of Mouse's mini-prop maybe doesn't make it clear but that prop included a lot of sliding joint motion and would allow for a surprising amount of engine movement.

[sean f]

2 hours ago, cackshifter said:

The engine moves a surprising amount on its mounts, so I wondered if a pump could be mounted on brackets maybe cantilevered from the sump, then it could all move with the engine, and you could drive it through some short coupling with rubber isolation from the crank so the pulley could do its job. There are small couplings like a dog clutch to handle minor misalignments. Presumably you would bolt whatever coupling  to the pulley centre with some kind of spacer over the crank bolt head to the 4 M8 holes, and it would become part of the crank mass unless decoupled.

I made this a few years back for a friend, worked well for quite a few years, as far as I am aware it still is working somewhere.

The drive coupling was drilled to bolt up using the existing fitting bolts for the pulley (M8 4x75mm PCD if any one is interested) and the other side machined and keyed for the dog clutch. In use it was activated manually at the start of the event and left in until the end, it wouldn't have taken a huge amount of work to rig a remote cable mechanism of some sort. This was the first make up and after reinstalling the engine it had to come back out and the lower edges of the mount cut back to give enough clearance for the front axle, from memory they were made this size first go as that was the width of the steel late I had in the workshop a bit of work with the grinder soon fixed things. I think there was about an inch of clearance on the rad for a 200tdi/LT77 set up, I don't think it would be possible to do something similar for a 300tdi/R380 set up with out some serious moving about of stuff.

 

[elbekko]

Out of the box idea: how about gear driven from the engine somehow? Maybe hooking into the starter gear? On a V8 with the steel sump that would be relatively simple as there's an inspection plate on the bottom part of the bellhousing.

[cackshifter]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I've not heard anything about V8 cranks being weak and the 4.0 / 4.6 got bigger journals so I'm hoping they're the most robust of the bunch.

Sorry, my previous post was a senile moment, I had the impression the target was 300tdi.

[FridgeFreezer]

28 minutes ago, cackshifter said:

Sorry, my previous post was a senile moment, I had the impression the target was 300tdi.

No, I've got standards

[Escape]

23 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

In the early days of milemarkers they used an uprated PAs pump on a polyvee and they always seemed to be slow and struggle a bit, so yeah I'm banking on a fair bit more than that and likely over-building it based on whatever bits are available for the right price.

PAS pumps are (typically) low flow and relatively low pressure. It's common to have them share a single V-belt with the water pump and/or alternator. Just look at a V-belt V8. So their power is limited, resulting in low speed as you do want a good pull. From what I can find power draw is around 1 hp under load at around 1000rpm.

With a polybelt a lot more is possible, an AC compressor does take some power (several hp), usually enough to change the idle or to warrant the ECM to up the idle when turning on AC. I'm assuming the polybelt is far from maxed out by the AX compressor, so 5-6 hp to drive an hydraulic pump should be no problem. Which is what the 12cc pump I chose will take at a typical load and low to mid rpm. Time will tell if the maths are right, the previous smaller pump never seemed to stress the belt and certainly never slipped.