Defender purchase advice

[OllyAllsop]

Hi all,

I'm looking to buy my first defender. I've always wanted a defender and I'm finally going to pull the trigger but I could do with a bit of advise on what to look out for. 

Now this will be a daily driver for me. I have been looking at puma defenders and currently looking at a 2007 2.4 with 65k miles on the clock, it has full service history and a good MOT history. Overall the vehicle also looks good chassis and body wise. Is there anything I should look out for on a defender of this year or is there any reason I should avoid this age and save a bit more money to go for something newer. 

I am looking to buy the defender as a bit of a project also and something I want to own for a good while and keep making improvements to it. I even toyed with the idea of getting something a little older (td5) as a complete project car getting a normal daily run around car. Is there any benefits to the older engines? As in are they easier to work with and is there more upgrades that can be done etc? I am more swaying towards a puma though.

I'm open to absolutely any advice. As I say this will be my first defender, I have drove a few of them and just cant wait to get one of my own. 

Cheers in advance 

Olly

[jeremy996]

There are a lot of threads with purchase advice, although finding them can be a bit of a pain with the site search facilities. Pumas are modern cars to me, so I am no expert, hopefully someone will be along in a moment. 

 

 

[fmmv]

At some point you will need a chassis swap, so budget for that as well. Id say focus on the bodywork, mechanicals are relatively easy to fix( not necessarily cheap), trim and bodywork are harder and can be surprisingly expensive. Check doors are ok in particular.

[landroversforever]

Number one thing before choosing which model to go with is to go somewhere to drive both a 2.2 & 2.4 Puma, and also the Td5 before you make a decision. I personally much prefer the td5 to the newer ones. 

[OllyAllsop]

5 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

There are a lot of threads with purchase advice, although finding them can be a bit of a pain with the site search facilities. Pumas are modern cars to me, so I am no expert, hopefully someone will be along in a moment. 

 

 

Great thank you!

[OllyAllsop]

3 hours ago, fmmv said:

At some point you will need a chassis swap, so budget for that as well. Id say focus on the bodywork, mechanicals are relatively easy to fix( not necessarily cheap), trim and bodywork are harder and can be surprisingly expensive. Check doors are ok in particular.

Cheers for your reply,

bodywork shouldn’t be too much of an issue, I have family that work in restoring classic cars just not defenders hahah

but yes would be much easier if didn’t have to get body work repaired I se what your saying!

[Phill B]

My advice is 111% take someone who knows Defenders. And I mean someone that really knows Defenders, not just owned/owns one. In hindsight, I'd have gladly chucked a ton to someone from one of the LR forums to go with me if needs be. It could save you a bucket of money.

/2 cents

[Landy7]

I've owned 2.5TD, 200TDI, TD5 & 2.4 Puma. The 2.4 (and from what I read also the 2.2) are not the best engines when it comes to reliability, a td5 will outlive a 2.4 big time. But, when it comes to driving comfort, a 2.4 is more ideal as a daily driver. The interior is more refined and the 6-six speed gearbox let's you cruise at high speeds. Just looking at the dash makes it feel like a more modern vehicle. But don't expect a big difference, in the end they are all noisy uncomfortable vehicles

I suggest you do a test drive with a 2.4 and a td5 to feel the difference and to decide if the extra comfort of the 2.4 is worth it.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Landy7

[landroversforever]

I'd also add, don't pay more for one which has mods, and aim to buy the most standard one you can. Less stuff changed, less chance of someone fitting things badly.

[Chicken Drumstick]

On 4/2/2023 at 7:14 AM, OllyAllsop said:

Hi all,

I'm looking to buy my first defender. I've always wanted a defender and I'm finally going to pull the trigger but I could do with a bit of advise on what to look out for. 

Now this will be a daily driver for me. I have been looking at puma defenders and currently looking at a 2007 2.4 with 65k miles on the clock, it has full service history and a good MOT history. Overall the vehicle also looks good chassis and body wise. Is there anything I should look out for on a defender of this year or is there any reason I should avoid this age and save a bit more money to go for something newer. 

I am looking to buy the defender as a bit of a project also and something I want to own for a good while and keep making improvements to it. I even toyed with the idea of getting something a little older (td5) as a complete project car getting a normal daily run around car. Is there any benefits to the older engines? As in are they easier to work with and is there more upgrades that can be done etc? I am more swaying towards a puma though.

I'm open to absolutely any advice. As I say this will be my first defender, I have drove a few of them and just cant wait to get one of my own. 

Cheers in advance 

Olly

I love 90's/Defenders. But I would say go and drive a few if you can. I personally have no problem with them, but there is no denying the comfort and interior space is very different to a lot of other vehicles. If you would be happy with an Elise or small 1990s hatback (Pug 106) as a daily, then a Defender should be fine. If you think such cars would be too unrefined or uncomfortable, then a Defender probably isn't for you.

There are ways to improve a Defender for road use, but do remember you won't be able to solve some of the basic design, such as the shape of the interior or how the body is mounted (lots of separate metal panels, bolted together and bolted metal to metal to the chassis).

Land Rover had a very good attempt at solving the common complaints with the Defender, i.e.comfort, refinement, NVH and interior passenger space. The result was the Discovery. Which is a vey good vehicle and basically is a Defender under the body, so has the same abilities. Overall a Range Rover Classic, Discovery 1 or 2 or even a Range Rover p38 all can do the same things a Defender can, but much nicer on the road.

However I do see the appeal of the Defender. Although in a similar thought pattern. The Jeep Wrangler (JK and JL) models are also superior to the Defender in almost every regard except towing. The older TJ Wrangler is rather nice too. The Defender is slower and much more agricultural by comparison and much lower spec as a rule.

In terms of looking a Defender over. TBH they are pretty easy, very basic vehicles that you can see almost every part of with relative ease. As long as you are competent or take someone with you, I really wouldn't worry too much. In fact there are few vehicles sold in the past 30 years that are easier to inspect.

 

As for which Defender... that is a difficult question with no definitive answer. In many ways the latter models are the better ones. The 2.4 and 2.2 Puma. They have better specs, more features, more power and go faster out of the box. But there are a few issues. While the latter dash looks ok, I much prefer the utility and practical layout of the older dash. I also personally really liked the vents that do not exist on the Puma's. Although I think the biggest issue with the Puma is how they drive. While they have plenty of power and can easily be mapped for more. The setup is very very jerky to drive. It really doesn't matter what you do and isn't one thing in particular. But every gearchange is a jerky affair, even if you concentrate really hard.

You also need to wait until you are in 3rd before putting your foot down, because it will not like you fast shifting from 1st to 2nd or to 3rd. I also find the gearing to be unsuited to road use. 1st seems really low when pulling away, but it'll bog and bunny hop if you use 2nd to pull away. I also find the gearing is mismatched for taking junctions and turns. It'll either feel like it is struggling or screaming its head off.

On the plus side the anti stall is quite cool, although off road it makes the tickover too fast for some uses IMO. The traction control off road is very good and the Puma's are generally more civilised and refined on the road. As well as being newer.

I think however I'd actually opt for a tidy Td5 if I was given the choice. The Td5 will make very similar power levels to the Puma's when tuned and while it doesn't make the same torque out of the box, they still go quite well. They also had optional traction control and are a lot smoother to drive. The Td5 also makes a much better noise too. But you will be looking at older vehicles, not that I think that would be an issue really.

[landroversforever]

@Chicken Drumstick talks a lot of sense there and reminds me of the dash.

TD5 dash I much prefer but also find it gives me more room (6’3”). Unless it’s got the optional AC which is just slapped on the bottom face and takes a chunk of leg room away. 

[monkie]

I'm in the process of swapping my 1988 110 fitted with a 200tdi to a newer (2008 on) Tdci Puma. 

The best advice already given is go and drive a few, be very picky and do not rush your decision. The more you see, the more familiar you will become. 

I was in the Td5 vs Tdci debate with myself. In the end I much prefer the more modern style dash and doors that actually fit on the puma defenders, but this is all personal preference, you may prefer a Td5. You need to look at a few to see what works for you for what you want. With a defender age doesn't necessarily count for that much, you could find a trashed 2.2tdci with holes in it, and then a beautiful Td5 in tidy condition. 

Also finding a defender, even a "recent" 2.2tdci that hasn't been modified and mucked around with but well looked after isn't as easy as some might think. Keep searching, they do exist! 

Spend time to properly look over a defender, test everything you can on the vehicle, ask lots of questions. If the seller or the vehicle doesn't seem right to you, walk away. 

[Simon Smith]

I had a 2.4tdci loan car for a while, I found the ride comfort and handling to be the same as my 1992 200tdi, didn't like the bulky dashboard as it takes too much space. As for the engine, while on paper it's more powerful, I actually didn't like the way it delivers that power and prefer the Tdi or TD5. You need to drive both, but personally I would have a Tdi or TD5 over a tdci.

[Junglie]

Or do what I did.

Go on EBay, find one you like the look of, put in an insultingly low bid, discover that because it wasn't very well listed you're the only bidder and have therefore won.

Have that conversation with your wife/partner/significant other. 

Collect the Landy, complete with slipping clutch and a selection of yet to be discovered foibles (most, to be fair, standard factory fit).

Get into this community and wonder what the Hell took you so long and how it can be so much fun owning something that is fundamentally as flawed as a Landy.

You know it makes sense!

[Chicken Drumstick]

Something worth nothing, which is good news for Junglie.

Defenders are simple vehicles and you can buy and replace pretty much every single part of them, no matter the model, spec or year. This means, so long as you have the funds, you can turn a tatty worn out one into a concours winning machine. Few other vehicles are as easy to maintain.

[TSD]

On 4/2/2023 at 7:14 AM, OllyAllsop said:

I'm open to absolutely any advice.

I can only give the same advice I always give when asked this question - Don't do it! Defenders are slow, noisy, draughty, leaky, thirsty, rusty and unreliable. In todays market they are also hugely overpriced. This last one is opinion, all the previous points are just acknowledged facts.

If none of the above puts you off, then Welcome! and don't worry, everyone else here is mad too . Also you should be aware that LRs are dangerously addictive, even in small doses. In the long term, one is rarely enough

[steve b]

It starts with one......

Before you know it you'll have a shed full and no spare time left 

On a more relevant note, as above really - drive as many as you can and don't rule out 200 or 300 Tdi's , some have already had a galv. chassis and maybe a galv BH and can be bought generally for less than the cost of building it .

Be very wary of any with a coastal location/heritage....

Good luck and feel free to post questions on here about any that you find and like

Steve

[Chicken Drumstick]

It is interesting how so many Land Rover owners seem to own multiple Land Rovers. In fact I know very few owners with just one. 
 

For the record there are 3 Land Rover products outside the house right now…. and another a few miles away. 

[TSD]

3 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

It is interesting how so many Land Rover owners seem to own multiple Land Rovers. In fact I know very few owners with just one.

It's all about getting the total reliability up... If one starts 80% of the time, then one of two should start around 96% of the time (*) I own four LR derived vehicles... draw your own conclusions

(*) Maybe... I hated probability in maths

Edited April 5, 2023 by TSD

[monkie]

1 is enough for me. It has gone through my mind several times to get another, maybe an ex military one, but I don't have the space or time.

I didn't like probability in maths either; the way I see it is that if I had more than 1 land rover, the probability of having a vehicle refusing to start or suffering from random and inexplicable electrical problems has just increased several fold. 

[smallfry]

I really dislike the new dash. Too bulky and just horrid. Not what a Land Rover is all about. IMO the 2.2 and 2.4 engines are carp for the same reasons that Chicken Drumstick has described.

Having had 22 land Rovers over 40 years, I would never have one as an only vehicle daily driver. Not because they are particularly unreliable, but because some jobs suffer from mission creep and take a lot longer than expected, and before you know it, the truck has been off the road for a week, or a month, and sometimes years.

 

[Simon Smith]

My  200Tdi 110 is 30 years old, and has been my very reliable daily driver for over 20 of those years, It has gone wrong of course, but only once let me down to the point I had to abandon it at work and get a lift home. I only had the Tdci when mine was in for accident repairs, and was pleased to give the keys back afterwards. They do need regular TLC to be reliable.

 

[monkie]

I'm surprised to see the amount of dislike for the Puma dash, I see it as a huge and long overdue upgrade and it has made me dislike the older style dash in my current 110. I do love the sound of the Td5 engine over the 4 cylinder engines... All this variety in personal preference goes to prove that anyone looking to buy a Defender for the first time really must check a few different variations out to see what you like and what works for you.

[pete3000]

If it's going to be a daily drive, I'd want essential comforts such as aircon and heated screens instead of electric windows, airbags and sunroofs.

Also look at fuel consumption between say the td5 and the tdci. Does the tdci have tilt and rake adjustment on the steering wheels?

 

Pete

[Arjan]

Welcome to the MadHouse...

What has been said.

Really, don't do it. Defenders in any shape or form are overpriced bottomless money pits.

Drive as many different versions as you can, make sure you really understand what you're getting into and buy for less money a D 1 or 2. Not perfect vehicles but so much more comfort and for 90 % as good off road as the Defender - but with a working heater, good seats and a cabin you can actually listen to the radio in.

But, if you really want a 2.2 or 2.4, budget a chassis and bulkhead swop as they will be needed..

Good luck !