Jon White Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Jon, does that mean for Modified class pretty much anything goes within the limitations below it. ie a 3 winch, dual steer, twin lockers, 33" MT shod vehicle would be OK? as i reckon that would put the other more standard vehicles off.ref above, if you weren't use to using/having a rear winch you probably would have approached the way you did, or if that was the only approach then given it a miss maybe? I think a bit where you can be recovered by other teams (where the other team get a bonus for helping out) or recovered by a marshall and you then loose the points for that punch could be incorporated. Sorry - didnt think of that lot........ Front axle steering only. Twin lockers ok (for the reasons already outlined) 3 winches??? Where the hell do you put the third one?? On the bottom so you can winch yourself back onto your wheels once you've rolled it??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon White Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 As to the +2" tyre rule I think its silly. You need a max diamter limit - eg 33", else what happens is some enters a hole on 35's, gets stuck, digs the ruts out 35" deep, and thus the section becomes impassible for anybody else on lesser tyres. If the limit is 33" 99.9% of people will run 33" tyres and hence level playing field. Otherwise you get, as is now the case with so many playsites (Slindon is especially bad IMHO) that large areas of the sites become inaccessable to people running on less than about a 37" tyre. IMHO there is now considerable scope to limiting tyre sizes even for play days to stop further erosion of the sites. Otherwise if we carry on we're all going to be running 44" boggers just to get around the play sites the ruts are getting so deep! Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 It is rubbish to put a lockered up G wagen or cruiser in a standard class alongside a 90/110/RR/Disco because that's how they came out of the factory. Why is it rubbish? most standard 90s will walk all over a standard G-wagon off road! I know that a standard 90 is far better around Culmhead than my tank of a truck- last weekend proved that fairly conclusively- i was the very first to get stuck! How would you feel as a novice turning up to the event in your pride and joy Disco / Frontera / whatever with a nice shiny winch on the front to find you're in the same class as a cruiser or G wagen with a winch and axle lockers? I think you would find that most people woud turn around and go home. why would they turn round and go home? a lot of discos and fronteras now have electronic traction control, and a lot of discos will easily out drive a cruiser or g wagon. How do you think cruiser owners will feel turning up to an event and being unfairly disadvantaged by these land rovers with amazing axle articulation? They have lockers to make up for the lack of articulation. If you limit the vehicles according to an randomly imagined set of fair rules, then it's only fair that those vehicles with huge disadvantages (such as a long wheelbase and huge weight) and taken into account. Therefore all vehicles must wieh 3 tonnes. maybe we should limit articulation so that every vehicle only has 8" of travel? I'm being ridiculous on purpose of course, but if land cruisers were the most amazing off road vehicles in the world then everyone would have them- they're not, and need all the help they can get. Allow people to drive what they want, with a limited set of modifications from standard, otherwise you are going to penalise a lot of people for not driving land rover products! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 I refer my learned friend to my earlier post viz: Not sure a different class system is required, I think it is more to do with how the day feels to the novice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthdicky Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 I'm being ridiculous on purpose of course, but if land cruisers were the most amazing off road vehicles in the world then everyone would have them- they're not, and need all the help they can get. I'm not sure this sort of event is really about needing help/handicapping to level the playing field - it's about having a fun day out. I'm not even sure that James was thinking of having prizes for 1st/2nd/3rd etc.? I think a load of really competitive people arguing about how they're disadvantaged in whatever way so that they can win is going to put more people off than bring new people in... Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Jim I do not like fish so I do not eat it. If James's rules do not suit you... I get round OK on 27" tyres... Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiWhite Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 James, I'm sure loads would be up for this, me included. One of the best comps I've done was the Shire LRC when we teamed up - remember? Very non damaging and just good fun. I've done a few of James' challenges and the Mike Wolfe Challenge before and frankly I feel unable to compete due to my being not willing to damage my truck, and/or being unwilling to dangle it off 12ft + drops to get a punch. Classes wise, I'd say both standard and mod should have a 33" max size, with nothing more aggressive than a MT. Standard should be one winch per team and no lockers, mod should be one winch per vehicle and one locker per vehicle. Both classes should be standard LR silouette, but with Disco and Rangie bobtails allowed to compete with 90s. Rear winches is an interesting one - my opinion is that the events should appeal to the weekend warrior. Bolting a winch on is easy, having a rear winch is much more involved. Restrictions to just front winches will require turns in tight spots and therefore more interesting.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 I'm not sure this sort of event is really about needing help/handicapping to level the playing field - it's about having a fun day out. I'm not even sure that James was thinking of having prizes for 1st/2nd/3rd etc.?I think a load of really competitive people arguing about how they're disadvantaged in whatever way so that they can win is going to put more people off than bring new people in... Richard yep i totally agree- so let people turn up in what they want (ie a standard vehicle) and let them drive. it's going to be ridiculous going up to a newbie and saying- oh by the way because that vehicle over there doesn't have X then you can't use it even though you are coming for a fun day out! I do not like fish so I do not eat it. If James's rules do not suit you... it's not about me, (ok it is but that's a different conversation ) it's about not being elitist and snobby. Lets all try and get along, welcome a bit of diversity and not get our knickers in a twist because one vehicle has a piece of kit that another doesn't have! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 My 2p. The idea of a non-damaging, fun event appeals to me as I can do that with Lara (my 11 year old) which is not feasible with the more serious comp events. As would I'm sure many others who need their trucks for DD use or perhaps drive a 4x4 that doesn't suit dents quite as well as a 90. The more I see discussion above about classes I see less fun and more competitiveness creeping in. OK, smaller tyres and fewer winches may initially make entry to this class more accessible but trailered 90's on those Simex pattern 235s with wings bars, ext cage,.. and carefully prep'd will soon start to dominate making such events serious competitions just for a new class. If thats the goal I'll back out but a fun day (shire have run some fun punch events) where just having a good selection of punches to try and get if you wish and not being all about 1st, 2nd 3rd is what I would like to see. IF it is for fun then I'm not sure classes or regs are needed. Why should I have to have a second set of tyres just to do 'fun' events? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 I would love to be able to have a go at something that is not going to wreck what is my everyday car. The only aides to traction/forward or backward motion I have are 245/70 mud terrains and the fact I have removed my anti-roll bars. I have no lift, no winches and no lockers (yet). I'm looking forward to the Shire fun day on 25/11, which I'm led to believe will include some punches and a timed hill-climb (getting as close to a set time as possible rather than the quickest to the top). If there were more of that sort of thing going on, then I would jump at the chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrode Finger Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Again, great idea, also plan to have a dabble with the shires fun day challenge as above. but, the standard silhoutte thingy and bobtail bit, where would that put my hybrid, a mechanically standard 3.9 RRC with a 'defender esque' body on it, hell it even has the lardy rear end cos its been kept full length to be useful for me. Where is it fun and where is it a competition, a very fine line here i think. I am also a carp driver, but having a point to a fun day seems a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted October 24, 2007 Author Share Posted October 24, 2007 Some really good food for thought coming out. If we dont have prizes and its not a competition but a fun day out is there still a point? i think so (probably) Classes - room for more thought. restrictions etc i see the points being raised, but if you want a point to the fun day as CF eludes to then you have prizes or something to aim for therefore you need classes and restrictions to meet those classes. if you dont have prizes then you prob dont need classes. - what would you want. And finally to devils advocate with the cruiser i ask you to take a look at the web address at the top of the page. Yes i like LRs and try to promote the sport probably with them in mind, this is after all a land rover forum so therefore the issue is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8CAMEL Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Some really good food for thought coming out. If we dont have prizes and its not a competition but a fun day out is there still a point? i think so (probably) Classes - room for more thought. restrictions etc i see the points being raised, but if you want a point to the fun day as CF eludes to then you have prizes or something to aim for therefore you need classes and restrictions to meet those classes. if you dont have prizes then you prob dont need classes. - what would you want. And finally to devils advocate with the cruiser i ask you to take a look at the web address at the top of the page. Yes i like LRs and try to promote the sport probably with them in mind, this is after all a land rover forum so therefore the issue is? tell you what jim if you would like me to show you what can be done in your landcruiser just let me know i would be only too happy to see where i can take it just need a small disclaimer about not being responsible remember how much fun you had when you took torre canyon to 7S paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I guess there are some things you will have to insist upon ………………… like adequate recovery points ……………..tested shackles …………….. no fecking KERRS to be on site (or only used by marshals) ……………. you will also need more marshals ………..I guess the scrutineering will need to be a little more rigorous to ensure every bodies safety ……. But hey, sounds like a good idea …………….. go for it……… Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I think that some of you are too concerned about tyre sizes and damage to the vehicle, with penalties for each. If you make the event fun and non-competetive then what does it matter if one team wants to batter their car into every tree, or if another team wants to have the challenge of driving where larger tyres have just been. When I go to a playday and I try to follow a mate on 38's, lockers and portals, I dont break down in tears or leave early because I only have 35's and open diffs, I just see it as another challenge, and I probably get a bigger thrill out of driving the same section because for me it was that much more dificult I would welcome a fun event where the emphasis is not a class based structure with tyre restrictions etc, but where everyone turns up, has a good go at it, then has a good laugh with their new mates about it afterwards Anyways, as this thread started on the subject of an easier style challenge, then yes, I would love to try it, but cannot sadly because of the restrictions. If what Mark (Ofarmer) and bishbosh say about the normal JST events is true (I.e. its mostly fun, everyone shares info and generally has a laugh), then why would an easier one need to be run? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I think that some of you are too concerned about tyre sizes and damage to the vehicle, with penalties for each. If you make the event fun and non-competetive then what does it matter if one team wants to batter their car into every tree, or if another team wants to have the challenge of driving where larger tyres have just been.When I go to a playday and I try to follow a mate on 38's, lockers and portals, I dont break down in tears or leave early because I only have 35's and open diffs, I just see it as another challenge, and I probably get a bigger thrill out of driving the same section because for me it was that much more dificult I would welcome a fun event where the emphasis is not a class based structure with tyre restrictions etc, but where everyone turns up, has a good go at it, then has a good laugh with their new mates about it afterwards Anyways, as this thread started on the subject of an easier style challenge, then yes, I would love to try it, but cannot sadly because of the restrictions. If what Mark (Ofarmer) and bishbosh say about the normal JST events is true (I.e. its mostly fun, everyone shares info and generally has a laugh), then why would an easier one need to be run? Lewis I think that type of attitude is what these challenges are trying to get away from. Some of us (me included) would not go near a challenge that provided the potential to cause damage to your daily driver. Fine you may not be bothered about damaging your car but for many of us it's also a daily driver and we can't afford to cause too much damage. I see these type of challenges as a nice gentle introduction. If you enjoy it and want to go to some of the more hardcore events that's fine. But if you want to stick to the easy non-damaging stuff then that's fine also. I stopped going to pay and play days due to the number of muppets driving around in a £50 Suzuki and not bothering if they hit something/someone else. My car has cost a lot of money and I don't want it ruined by a muppet in a £50 scrapper that they don't care about. Rgds Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Without wishing to hijack, the Shire LRC "fun challenge" events (next one being 25th November @ Bunny Lane, plug plug ) have proved popular and I think I can see why - we set out a load of punches, hand out punch cards and let people do what they like. They can work out who did best in the pub later where they can all discuss if J Bloggs got that punch no-one else did, but he's the only one with lockers, etc. etc. We don't set classes, and we don't usually tot up points or give prizes - it's just a play day with a little extra interest that makes people think "I wonder if I can get to that punch" rather than driving round following each other's tyre tracks as many seem to do at normal play days. The fact we're relaxed about what people do, and the lack of serious competition or trophies seems to discourage the big boys from turning up, or if they do they don't take it so seriously either. We have also been working hard to keep the scrappers on trailers away - MOT & insurance is required which seems to work well, plus we always look closely at anything that doesn't come through the gate under it's own steam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 ....seems to discourage the big boys from turning up are you kidding? has Moglite lost weight then? (cap, coat, screaming tyres) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 FF The Bunny lane event sounds just right. No pressure or competition. Unfortunately won't have time to give it a go this time. My local pay and play sight (Devils Pit) run it as a business and so all they care about is getting punters through and thus maximising their take. A couple of years ago I went and saw three £50 Suzies come down a hill. They braked very hard and all piled into the back of the one in front. The first car endeded up about a foot off my rear bumper. All they did was laugh. Needless to say I was not very impressed. Rgds Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 LewisI think that type of attitude is what these challenges are trying to get away from. Some of us (me included) would not go near a challenge that provided the potential to cause damage to your daily driver. Fine you may not be bothered about damaging your car but for many of us it's also a daily driver and we can't afford to cause too much damage. I see these type of challenges as a nice gentle introduction. You seem to have missunderstood me - I am not advocating the encouragement of wrecking your daily, indeed if I had a daily I too would not be keen to damage it. I was merely trying to suggest that some people do not mind hitting a tree if it is the only means of reaching a punch/completing a section and they should not be penalised for it. I consider having to make contact with rocks/trees/terrain as a normal and inevitable part of offroad driving, this contact does not have to mean damage to the vehicle. I stopped going to pay and play days due to the number of muppets driving around in a £50 Suzuki and not bothering if they hit something/someone else. My car has cost a lot of money and I don't want it ruined by a muppet in a £50 scrapper that they don't care about. I couldnt agree more regarding the "scrapper" contingent, And nowhere in my above post have I suggested that this type of vehicle or behaviour should be acceptable. My post above was trying to say that I would like to enter a fun, non-competitive event with no restrictions. I am sure that having three winches and 38" tyres would be advantageous in some conditions and a severe detriment in others. Perhaps I am alone in relishing the challenge of driving alongside/keeping up with a better equiped vehicle? I hope not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthdicky Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 If what Mark (Ofarmer) and bishbosh say about the normal JST events is true (I.e. its mostly fun, everyone shares info and generally has a laugh), then why would an easier one need to be run? Because they're a lot harder Just look at the photos for the last few events - the "standard" sort of vehicle at these is a 90 with cage, lockers and 35's and hence the punches are set to give them a challenge. If they were all set out so that a standard Discovery could get them without any damage then the majority would be done in less than 2 hours, hence the need for an easier challenge to enable people with less "extreme" vehicles to have a go. Your vehicle would be ideal for one of these events as you're not going to worry about rubbing against the odd tree or driving into a bonnet deep mudhole, or whether you can drive it home at the end of the day... Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Now I understand What I need is a beginners event then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthdicky Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I'd still say James's normal events would be fine for you as a "beginner", if your tyres pass the event rules... They are friendly and people will help you out if you need it, unlike some other events I've been to where people have been too busy trying to win to stop for 2 minutes. The AWDC do a clubman series for people who haven't entered any of the larger events and don't seem to have any equipment rules, might be worth a look? Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Thats the issue - I still dont pass the entry requirements for 35" tyres If i were to do another AWDC event I would probably just enter the normal ones again and come last. My interest in this thread stems from wanting to do a JST event Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D9OSV Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 JBS4x4 club used to run very successful 'Safari days' These where none competive punch events with usually had five special stages (These varyed in difficulty with section 1 being easy, section 2 slightly harder and so on) and where hugely popular with most attracting over 30+ vehicles from Battle scarred full spec comp cars right the way down to straight of the shelf spanking new cars. The punches were set so that they where acheivable for most and some required help or assitance from others in lightly prepped motors, it encouraged friendship and skill, it was great. They stopped due to The organisers of JBS suffering constrictions on there time and the increasing cost of insurance. Crack on James, you will have great fun doing it Just don't do classes, it leads to arguements Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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