Devon 4x4 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I'll put on my best Devon accent for you Ian A couple of points.... Plenty of standard vehicles compete in CSW events, and similar events all over the country... that's why they have standard classes... and long may it continue. The whole point of organisations like CSW was to introduce people to challenge style offroading without the need to throw money at it. I cut my teeth trialling a totally standard Series 3 on a set of SAGs (more years ago than I like to talk about).. I actually prefer to do stuff like that these days... you get to see who can drive and who relies on the equipment ;-) It would be a dull world if everyone drove "Devon 4x4 Traybacks", but I don't think anyone should decry their existance. Just like all forms of motorsport (and sorry if this sounds a bit cocky) but people like things to aspire to. They see a vehicle which has been fully prepped for something like a big international event and want to emulate it, to make their own version, to build on the ideas from that vehicle... it all adds to the diversity. You don't have to spend in excess of £15K to make a competitive challenge truck... but how much do you need to spend to make a truck that can win the OBC Morocco ? I can tell you something with absolute certainty... our trayback was very much in the cheaper end of the vehicles which were at the 2007 event.. (along with the other UK guys like Jim M, Andy C, etc.) The spec of some of the vehicles there would make your eyes water. Someone earlier was commenting that the magazines never featured "normal" people's trucks... well, that is not too difficult to answer. The magazines like to see something with an 'angle'.. something different, something done well on a budget, an amazing restoration, something rare, etc. etc. They also need to know about them ! We phone the magazines and let them know what vehicles we are building, what projects are going through the workshops... when there is something that catches their imagination, we put them in touch with the owners. Just because we are Devon 4x4, doesn't mean we can just click our fingers and get vehicles featured. I have to say, that Total Off Road seem to champion the 'normal' guy's vehicle. Every month you see a vehicle that someone has built in their shed or on their driveway and I love it.... but I like to see new, aspirational stuff too... I like to look at pictures of shiny new engines that I could never afford, of chassis designs that I can get ideas from. Anyway, I've rambled on enough for now in my fake Devonian voice... so I'll be off to drink some Zider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Never mind the bickering, tell him James...Chris errr - i built two by hand and they both blew Chris rebuilt my rear one and its still working no probs (running around looking for wood to touch now!) Tim - glad your around to comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 What Chris said. Welding with a mini-mig is horrible. Wiring is mostly about patience - if you look at Nige's MS install in the tools'n'fab section you may be inspired, Nige will freely admit that he was not exactly keen on wiring going into the project but has, by taking his time and taking advice, turned out a wiring loom worthy of the pros. James - do you run classes in your events? If you do then it should be more than doable for a stock-ish motor to walk away with silverware. And, bizarre though it may sound, there are those who just enjoy competing rather than bimbling aimlessly round a play site. We always have a good reaction when we run "just for fun" trials, punches, etc. at club play days - we purposely don't make them seriously competitive to avoid too much of the red mist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I'll put on my best Devon accent for you Ian Anyway, I've rambled on enough for now in my fake Devonian voice... so I'll be off to drink some Zider Thank you Tim ..............please remember to get your passport stamped as you cross the border ........ Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Geez what a a load of talk for a simple subject. At least D44 build/use and manufacture thier stuff unlike the orange crowd. Welcome Tim BTW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milemarker Type S Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Time for my 2p... 1. Yes magazines can be somewhat wrong/ pointless/ cr@p... If you don't like them don't buy them- If no one buys them then they go out of business and problem solved! 2. Stop knocking D4x4- they do some awesome work and the staff there are all top guys and girls. I wish all companies gave half as much of a ****about the customer as they do. I personally don't care if it took them 2 hours or 1000 hours to build the truck- to me it is an fantastic vehicle that I could only aspire to own (if only they have gone down the hydraulic winch route... ) 3. Yes we have an awful lot of standard trucks that compete at both CSW and 4X4adventures challenges- mine being one of them- I have spent much less than £5K on the whole vehicle and all the kit that is in or on it... And yes I do occasionally make the top three in my class! The last CSW event standard class was won by someone running a pretty much standard suzuki with an 8274 on the front- his score actually beat most of the modifieds running as well... and finally... 4. Given the choice I would rather build my own truck than get someone else to do it for me- I have a very limited budget, time and facilities (not to mention skill!) so am having to gradually improve bits and bobs as I go along. Yes there are things that I know I can't do myself and I will have to get someone to do them for me (roll cage building etc)- most of the time it is just about having the confidence to have a go at things. If I were to be paying someone to build it for me then D4x4 would be getting my vote, and money, every time. Shrek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Chris rebuilt my rear one and its still working no probs Didn't someone measure the backlash on the other one I rebuilt prior to taking it apart and measure it within the stated range? I thought you said they did. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Geez what a a load of talk for a simple subject.At least D44 build/use and manufacture thier stuff unlike the orange crowd. Welcome Tim BTW Agreed, it's a bit in places Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Ok A fact I recently had to phone D4x4 for tyres. I phoned around 10.00am on a thursday, nice chatty lady took my order for 34x10.50x16s, easy simple seemed at the time to have her finger on the pulse............. the NEXT day, a courier arrived, mit order THE NEXT F DAY And they didn't charge much for the delivery either,............... I'm guessing prob "cost" I have dealt with D4x4 now a few times, .............mainly cos their service is that good, ................but this time they suprised me : Just because a magazine types complete nonsense (shock horror surely not I hear you cry) doesn't mean that they didn't equally wince when they saw it, one thing is for sure they are a good bunch, exellent customer service and I won't hesitate to recomend them to anyone who asks, sadly this sort of company is NOT the norm here in the UK, and for that they should be recognised. As I have said before (and I'll say again I am sure ) : The D4x4s X-Eng Ashcrofts & JEDs of this world should be 'protected' - ..........you do that by using and buying from them, otherwise you will only have the crooks, hopeless junk sellers and the also rans all with truly cr*p customer service Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I have to say, that Total Off Road seem to champion the 'normal' guy's vehicle. Every month you see a vehicle that someone has built in their shed or on their driveway and I love it.... but I like to see new, aspirational stuff too... I like to look at pictures of shiny new engines that I could never afford, of chassis designs that I can get ideas from. And every month you see a truck that should have been checked for SVA by VOSA Oh and Nige, Scorpion can do very good service, just as Devon can cock up sometimes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheeppimp Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Oh and Nige, Scorpion can do very good service, just as Devon can cock up sometimes .... and it's how a company responds when they make a mistake that really can affect their profile. After all mistakes do happen, we're all only human. I've never used many of the 4x4 companies (not many do parts for series ones, dreadfully inconsiderate really what with me wanting nicely made bits for peanuts ) but if they had something I wanted I would go to some on recomendation from mates/forums and be dubious about other companies going on other peoples experience. disclaimer - this is not a suggestion that devon or anyone else has cocked up/is very good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon 4x4 Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 And every month you see a truck that should have been checked for SVA by VOSA Ahh, well that is an entirely different subject. Can't argue with that, but then we come back to the questions raised earlier in this thread as to how much responsibility the magazines should be aportioned in these situations. Should we insist that magazines only show things which can be verified / certified / approved by a panel of people ? There are magazines and journalists who only ever write about stuff that is "donated" for review... and strangely enough that particular bit of kit always seems to be the latest and greatest thing... I won't name names, but these things don't go unnoticed by either the advertisers or readers. This is clearly extremely misleading and does absolutely nothing for the credibility of the magazines, for the confidence of the advertisers or for furthering the knowledge of less-experienced readers. Here's what I'd like to see... and I say this as an enthusiast, an advertiser and knowing a fair few journalists very well.... Let's have a magazine that isn't scared to tell the truth. If Devon 4x4 produced a product which was terrible... let them review it, let them tell people.... BUT (and avoiding terrible American puns) this is a big BUT... make sure it is done by people with relevant, real experience of what they are talking about. If someone is reviewing winches, it is to be hoped that they have actually had the experience and knowledge needed to make a decent, factually correct article. The number of times I have read articles from self-appointed "experts" about how to build a vehicle, why a certain product is great, how an event should be run, etc. etc. knowing full well that either what they are writing is completely incorrect, or that the person involved has barely ever driven a car let alone built one just pains me. The format works in all sorts of other industries and in the end, I reckon that everyone wins... the magazines get more credibility, the readers get better and more accurate information and the suppliers have to up their game to make sure that standards are maintained. Maybe I'm asking too much.. I need a cup of tea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmobile Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Product "reviews" are one of the main thing that puts me off most mags, they just seem to be a reprint of the suppliers press release blurb and not an actual test or heaven forbid an opinion! To compare with a cycling mag "Cycling Plus", here every bike and component reviewed is pulled apart and thoroughly tested and the people involved in writing the articles have the proper relevant experience/qualifications. To highlight, I remember one of the mags did a huge tyre test which consisted of lots of industry bods (and advertisers) sat around talking about which were the best tyres! What's wrong with a standard course, vehicle and test driver and then rate the tyres against each other in the real world, how hard can it be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8CAMEL Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 as the person who first mentioned the devon 4x4 truck can i just say i was not knocking the truck or devon 4x4 but the journalism itself. When i ran the parts business i used to buy parts from D44 and liz was able to advise and help. They never let me down on delivery or quality. If it wasnt for devon 4x4 and others like it we would be stuck with the scrapirons of this world. I think the truck is awesome, what simon and D44 achieve is what the rest of us aspire to. Simon is the lucky one he has sucessfully built a business around his hobby. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
q-rover Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 D4x4 may be good, but their courier company they use fo rinternational orders is a***e, a waste of space, worse than useless. Here D4x4 could take a leaf out of Paddocks books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Here D4x4 could take a leaf out of Paddocks books. Christ on a bike, that's something I wouldn't want to hear if I ran a LR parts business To highlight, I remember one of the mags did a huge tyre test which consisted of lots of industry bods (and advertisers) sat around talking about which were the best tyres! What's wrong with a standard course, vehicle and test driver and then rate the tyres against each other in the real world, how hard can it be? According to the current issue of Petersen's, not all that hard: All it takes is a friendly play-site, and it makes for some actual facts in a product review - it'll never catch on! There are magazines and journalists who only ever write about stuff that is "donated" for review... and strangely enough that particular bit of kit always seems to be the latest and greatest thing... I won't name names, but these things don't go unnoticed by either the advertisers or readers. This is clearly extremely misleading and does absolutely nothing for the credibility of the magazines, for the confidence of the advertisers or for furthering the knowledge of less-experienced readers. Does this mean we are actually in total agreement about the mags? I don't know what your game is but I'm onto you! Consider this - if the punters were actually informed enough to know what to look for in a product, places that sell decent gear would end up stealing trade from the bargain basement stuff turned out by the likes of Paddocks. Earl Grey, three sugars please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSG Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 What a long thread! The mags serve a market need, they exist because people buy them - and die out if people don't. I must admit that you do get some major gaffs in them now and again but I find I buy and enjoy them for a while - then get fed up and don't for a few months. On the topic of Devon's trayback - I have to say its a smart bit of kit. I had a good look over it at Will's Exmoor bash and it was very impressive. Good job chaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Fridge if you do a search for 'boggers' on youtube there is some footage from that test, whilts that looks a lot better than some mags could so i find it somewhat amazing that the 54" boggers one, not. could they not get the tyres all in the same size? i pretty much already know that taller tyres are better its the pattern surley? Will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Fridge if you do a search for 'boggers' on you tube there is some footage from that test, whilst that looks a lot better than some mags could do, I find it somewhat amazing that the 54" boggers won, not. Could they not get the tyres all in the same size? I pretty much already know that taller tyres are better. It's the pattern that they should be comparing surely?Will. You are correct of course Will. I hope you don't mind me altering your post slightly to clarify the point you are making ? I haven't read the article, but at any rate it is very difficult to scientifically compare beyond doubt the relative performance of different tyres in a mud pit unless said pit was an artificial one lined with a smooth concrete surface. The pit should be completely emptied and refilled prior to each run with mud mixed up to an equal consistancy and viscocity, to discount factors such as the diffs and tyres from previous passes clearing a path and compactiing the mud, thus making later passes easier. And even after doing all that the results would be inconclusive, an example being that Simex ET's work better than Interco TSL's in the type of mud that is predominant in a forest south east of the city I live in, whilst in a forest north east, the TSl's work better. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob90 Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Ahh, well that is an entirely different subject. Can't argue with that, but then we come back to the questions raised earlier in this thread as to how much responsibility the magazines should be aportioned in these situations. Should we insist that magazines only show things which can be verified / certified / approved by a panel of people ? There are magazines and journalists who only ever write about stuff that is "donated" for review... and strangely enough that particular bit of kit always seems to be the latest and greatest thing... I won't name names, but these things don't go unnoticed by either the advertisers or readers. This is clearly extremely misleading and does absolutely nothing for the credibility of the magazines, for the confidence of the advertisers or for furthering the knowledge of less-experienced readers. Here's what I'd like to see... and I say this as an enthusiast, an advertiser and knowing a fair few journalists very well.... Let's have a magazine that isn't scared to tell the truth. If Devon 4x4 produced a product which was terrible... let them review it, let them tell people.... BUT (and avoiding terrible American puns) this is a big BUT... make sure it is done by people with relevant, real experience of what they are talking about. If someone is reviewing winches, it is to be hoped that they have actually had the experience and knowledge needed to make a decent, factually correct article. The number of times I have read articles from self-appointed "experts" about how to build a vehicle, why a certain product is great, how an event should be run, etc. etc. knowing full well that either what they are writing is completely incorrect, or that the person involved has barely ever driven a car let alone built one just pains me. The format works in all sorts of other industries and in the end, I reckon that everyone wins... the magazines get more credibility, the readers get better and more accurate information and the suppliers have to up their game to make sure that standards are maintained. Maybe I'm asking too much.. I need a cup of tea. Off topic but we have a tradition on this site, where suppliers give a forum discount?????? what do you reckon???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WALFY Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Off topic but we have a tradition on this site, where suppliers give a forum discount?????? what do you reckon???? I think the discount only applies if they are obviousley touting business nd events, which so far they aren't. But a discount to forum members would be nice as a gesture of goodwill. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Thanks for editing that bill, i re-read it and could hardly understand it myself, late night posting eh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 I think the discount only applies if they are obviousley touting business nd events, which so far they aren't. B a very valid point Mark. Tim has come on to speak up for D4x4 corner as a response not to towt for business so i think its a bit harsh to even ask to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WALFY Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Totaly agree. Like you say Tim has come on to fight his cause so to speak. No mention of goods/services or events they are organising. A bit cheeky to ask but in this world if you don't ask you don't get. Can't fault a man for trying though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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