World's best land rover

[sparg]

Right, - the landcruiser axles thread got me thinking... Given that the defender is likely to come to an end around 2010(?) and let's pretend, for a moment, that a group of squillionairs have managed to insulate themselves from recent banking shenanigins, and have an eye to the future; What should one build to fill the gap left by the defender?

To do this, we'd have to be clear what the new vehicle is supposed to do. Let's assume (for the moment) that the market for capable off-road vehicles will remain strong for the foreseeable, and let's also assume that, for such vehicles, reliability and maintain-ability are requisites.

if you could learn from past efforts, but could start again, what sort of features should this new vehicle have? - Given that this starts as an 'open source' project, which means it will probably diversify in various ways according to local needs, nevertheless, what should appear in the basic platform?

[RangeyRover]

I'll Play.

Lightness. Make the all up weight of the unladen vehicle below 1300KG

If this means losing the ladder chassis so be it.

The original series vehicles and <cough> suzikis <cough> go where they really should not.

Lock axle differentials as standard. this also means that you could lose the centre diff.

Fit tall tyres as standard, this is an off roader.

and make the bottom as flat as possible a la Africar.

My 2p

[rusty_wingnut]

Galv ladder frame no matter what! Galv bulkhead, straight 6 turbo diesel, 6 speed box, locker in the rear. twin heaters!

[BogMonster]

Mechanically injected ~3.0 litre engine with a variable vane turbo

Six speed gearbox plus two speed transfer box, torque biasing centre diff which can also be fully locked

Galvanised ladder chassis with proper reinforcement for towing points front and rear

Discovery 2 suspension layout, coil springs with live axles

Anti roll bars with some sort of quick disconnect arrangement for off road use

Four pin diffs both ends with factory option of axle difflocks

Bolt-together bodywork design to allow for the same "customisability" of a Defender and easy damage repair

Good ground clearance

Sensible factory fit range of off road tyre options

Engine PTO facility for driving hydraulic winch pumps

[Paul Humphreys]

Galvanised chassid, bulkhead and body pannels (if not ali or plastic).

3.0td engine.

FF lockers F&R.

Auto as a factory option.

35/10.5/16 tyres as standard.

Minumum electrics (well at least ones that work when in water).

Can be used in 2 or 4 wheel drive. Or even a factory 6x6.

Something that can carry a full sized pallet with 1.5t on it.

Paul

[Les Henson]

Defender body, re-worked 200TDi engine - cast iron head, warmer cam, chain driven, tuned to 180 brake as standard, wide angle props, galv chassis, sliders as standard fit, steering & diff guards, choice of road/intermediate/off-road/etc, tyres as an option, minimal electronics, naughty exhaust, logo on the back - closed fist with an extended middle finger

If you go too far, then everyone else's will look the same as everyone else's.

Les.

[sparg]

Right - clearly, we think this vehicel is likely to be different things to different people, and so finding the common denominator is hard. The ladder chassis does indeed allow a whole variety of bolt-on body styles - and that seems important to a lot of people - but is it the only way?

For instance, one reason the chassis is so massive and heavy is to have rigidity even without a monocoq body. but what if you started with a chassis that was more like a box - in fact, a bit like what you get with a roll cage fastened to the chassis in existing models. if you did that, would you actually need to have a box-section chassis, or would you use a tubular one? (this is a factory made item, so the fact that it's harder to fabricate matters little).

the other thing to ask is, even if we're using common mechanicals, does the chassis design have to be entirely common? - for instance, in the same way you have 90s and 110s (etc) you could have 2 or 3 short chassis, 2 or 3 long ones - would they cover all the options?

But, is the basis of this vehicle a near indestructible (!) 4WD drivetrain? - where would we (theoretically) buy that from?

Also, the engine part: how important is maintainability in the far corners of the outback an important consideration? - miles from a dealer. do we have to sacrifice out-and-out performance and economy for ruggedness and reliability under hostile circumstances? - and if so, how much trade-off do we accept? - are we really after something that could almost function on the moon?

Electrics -again, reliability and maintainability - is this feasible?

there are several themes here; quality of materials used seems high up there. If we started with something built lie it should be, there's no reaason we can't have a vehicle that lasts 'forever' - alright, you have to fit new parts as you break em or wear em out, but if the basis is right, you could buy one with the intention of keeping it going forever. Green, or what?

Ground clearance: Diffs seem to cause some problems, but can they be dealt with without increased mechanical complexity? or just use an armoured, sprung scrape plate and accept slightly worse clearance?

[GBMUD]

I would suggest a 3.0l TD engine with an auto option (or even a manual option!) and 2 speed transfer - or a 7 speed gearbox and no separate transfer? Full time 4x4 as at present but with optional LSD/lockers in both axles. Engine with as little electricity as can be made to pass emissions regs for the foreseeable future.

I prefer live axles as at present but I remain open to suggestions if independent suspension can be made to work (articulate) well as standard.

The main improvements I would like to see are in terms of driver/interior comfort. Better seats with just two seats in the front with elbow room and leg room. Second row seats that you can sit adults in comfortably - unlike current Defenders or Jap crewcabs - for long distances/periods of time.

What will we get? Something Disco2 based IMHO. Not a bad compromise based on my prefered specs above.

Chris

[Mo Murphy]

What about keep making the Defender, it is all things to all people.

Mo

[Boothy]

All the above sounds like my 1997 4.2 turbo diesel Nissan Patrol with 4 speed auto that I use to tow my Challenge Landy around the UK.

[muddy]

Rear loadspace you can fit a pallet into.

Galvenised components

Wider body for more interior space-bigger seats

6 speed box

Engine around the 200hp mark with corresponding torque

Factory option of paying £50 to have the person I'm not that keen on thing assembled with 2 tins of coppaslip B)

Will.

[sparg]

What about keep making the Defender, it is all things to all people.

Mo

Right - how about the same thing, but using decent steel and electrics, then?

so all we have to do is buy the assembly plant when they stop manufacturing (though isn't land rover going to india, now?) and simply use proper materials?

[plasticbadger]

LR lovers look away NOW -

Land Rover should look at what Jeep has done with the 2007 Wrangler - keep the original 'look' but dump the silly old things like removable windscreen, external hinges, rivets and stuff. The new Jeep looks like a jeep, but is all new (body wise!). Keep the ladder frame and solid axles, that's what tough vehicles are made of, but add unitary bodies and a decent set of options.

The key should be to offer a really good offroad version with proper locking diffs, disconnect anti roll bars, mud tyres, rock sliders etc as standard.

Jeep also is making some good 'utility models' for the military, but I think following the big Yank pickup market in terms of bodies would be good, have a base of SUV, 2 and 4 door chassis and then 2 lengths of rear body. Could give some good options and probably 3 or 4 wheel bases. You could cover most of the current options with properly built vehicles rather than the sometimes poor bolt together bits process.

As for powering, what more do you need than already is on offer in the Land Rover range? You've got the 2.7 diesel as a good base, then the TDV8 if you really want some power. Petrol wise they've got the Volvo straight 6 and the V8. All good, as long as they actually keep up with the market and stop trying to make 2000kg vehicles with 2400cc engines...

[GBMUD]

Defender, it is all things to all people.

Apart from the people at the European agency of crashing cars into dummies, who say that the Defender really is too hard.

Chris

[western]

LR lovers look away NOW -

Land Rover should look at what Jeep has done with the 2007 Wrangler - keep the original 'look' but dump the silly old

things like removable windscreen,

external hinges, rivets and stuff. The new Jeep looks like a jeep, but is all new (body wise!). Keep the ladder frame

and solid axles, that's what tough

vehicles are made of, but add unitary bodies and a decent set of options.

The key should be to offer a really good offroad version with proper locking diffs, disconnect anti roll bars,

mud tyres, rock sliders etc as standard.

Jeep also is making some good 'utility models' for the military, but I think following the big Yank pickup

market in terms of bodies would be good, have a

base of SUV, 2 and 4 door chassis and then 2 lengths of rear body. Could give some good options and probably

3 or 4 wheel bases. You could cover

most of the current options with properly built vehicles rather than the sometimes poor bolt together bits process.

As for powering, what more do you need than already is on offer in the Land Rover range? You've got the 2.7

diesel as a good base, then the

TDV8 if you really want some power. Petrol wise they've got the Volvo straight 6 and the V8. All good, as long

as they actually keep up with the

market and stop trying to make 2000kg vehicles with 2400cc engines...

I saw a 5 door wrangler recently & didn't like the look of the different colour around the rear upper side panels,

looked like a vinyl

pram hood was fitted. & it still had external door hinges just like a Defender

2008/09 wrangler

& it still has a foldable front screen,

much rather have my 110.

[Retroanaconda]

A Defender with a galvanised chassis/bulkhead/other steel parts, a decent powerplant (so a modified 200tdi as Les suggested), and locking axle diffs. That's what I'd build.

[Mo Murphy]

LR lovers look away NOW -

Land Rover should look at what Jeep has done with the 2007 Wrangler - keep the original 'look' but dump the silly old things like removable windscreen, external hinges, rivets and stuff. The new Jeep looks like a jeep, but is all new (body wise!). Keep the ladder frame and solid axles, that's what tough vehicles are made of, but add unitary bodies and a decent set of options.

The key should be to offer a really good offroad version with proper locking diffs, disconnect anti roll bars, mud tyres, rock sliders etc as standard.

Jeep also is making some good 'utility models' for the military, but I think following the big Yank pickup market in terms of bodies would be good, have a base of SUV, 2 and 4 door chassis and then 2 lengths of rear body. Could give some good options and probably 3 or 4 wheel bases. You could cover most of the current options with properly built vehicles rather than the sometimes poor bolt together bits process.

As for powering, what more do you need than already is on offer in the Land Rover range? You've got the 2.7 diesel as a good base, then the TDV8 if you really want some power. Petrol wise they've got the Volvo straight 6 and the V8. All good, as long as they actually keep up with the market and stop trying to make 2000kg vehicles with 2400cc engines...

Blasphemer ! Burn him, he's a witch !!!!!!

[Madcowz]

I just think they need to add a nicer interior and some cup holders.

Oops sorry, I thought I was in the Freelander section.

[Soren Frimodt]

I say: Unimog 404 Drivetrain, including gearbox, and chassis. Defender body with galv. bulkhead etc. TD5 Engine with 180 bhp standard. And of course a big mechanical center-mounted winch with 90 meters of wire! B)

[landmannnn]

Perhaps LS engine, portals to go with.

Anybody care to speculate what it will actually be like in the real world where the bean counters rule?

[Ruuman]

What everyone else says plus:

Base model should be in the 15k area.

Multiple engine options, factory fit LPG for the petrol models.

Chassis fitted with hard mounting points for roll cage and other things.

Plus burn down whoever makes the current axles so they can't be made anymore!

[T1G UP]

My new 90/110 would go....

2.0l / 3.0l diesel option all VVT

3 diiferent wheel base option to suit body style. 90, 100, 110 ish

composite, plastic panels for weight, lack of corrosion and replaceability.

seperate chassis with bolt on body styles, pick up, 3 door 4 seater, 5 door 7 seater made from ali with cage, winch etc mounts

dana stylee axles , with some steering lock! with FF locker options and portal boxes as standard. OR disco 3 running gear made a little narrower.

A decent hand brake, heater, air con, window winders, panel gaps and drive train.

£15k - 30K commercial status if required, VAT man proof

If they can make a SMART car like that then they can make a decent 2010 model 90/110 replacement

[tychoS]

Top priorities changes:

• get rid of the mud traps - a spaceframe instead of the present ladder-chassis, bulkhead and seatbox would be a good start
  
• proper roll-over protection as standard - a "full cage style" spaceframe would work for this
  
• get rid of the engine+gearbox+transferbox+propshafts+diffs+axleparts - replace with Tesla style electric motor+gear inside each wheel/hub
  
• have the people who design the individual parts and those designing the overall vehicle talk to each other - so you no longer have to take half the vehicle apart to get to the part you need to work on
  
• decent aerodynamics for better range/mileage/acceleration
  
• highly customizeable body - keeping with the full-cage/tomcat/spaceframe idea you could have several versions, one where the "cage" formed a station-wagon shape, another more like a trayback etc. Outer panels would bolt/bond to the spaceframe and internal dividers/panels/attachmentpoints/etc could be made up as you wanted.
  

Top priority things to keep:

• 3,5 ton towing capacity as standard
  
• tinker-ability
  
• overall looks
  
• choice of softtop/sw/pickup/etc bodystyles
  
• simplicity and robustness
  
• long service life in years as well as in miles
  

[tychoS]

ohh how could I forget this under "Top priority things to keep":

• keep the vent flaps under the windshield
  

[sparg]

alright,

we don't have any particular allegience to suppliers, 'cos they don't to us. Who shall we commission for the axles, the drivetrain, the chassis?