V8CAMEL Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 mmm lowers a few branches. I'm sure that all the winches state must not be used for lifting or lowering.tut tut tut mt hobbit for what its worth. 8274 - good fast and ok for comps tmax 11000 lasted 30 mins before it was discarded as to slow on the paying out( slower than walking speed of Martin - yes that slow) . Yes i know i could get out of the truck and put it into free spool but then martin kept falling over. Pulled and pulled and pulled but too bloody slow to even bother with. the 8274 itself once fitted with proper solenoids ie albright is good fast and reliabile for comps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted March 3, 2006 Author Share Posted March 3, 2006 Once fitted with Albright solenoides or with the new Warn solenoides, the 8274 is fast, reliable and excellent for comps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lara Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 If we are talking standard out of the box winch setups here I have only two sugestions, 1. for compettitions, you can't beat the simplicity and speed of the 8274, 2. For reliability, good speed and serious power then a Mile Marker with a standard PTO pump is fantastic, Both can be improved by bigger motors / pumps etc but the hydraulics seem to be much more reliable and far stronger, I have single line pulled with mine where a similar Defender with an 8274 with 6hp motor could not winch without a snatch block! And he needed a wheel assist where mine shot up without even a murmur. The 8274 on the other hand is a lot more simple. Lara. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_T Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Good points made by HFH. Also don't forget that the intended use of the winch plays a part. My MM H12 is for occassional recovery but also gets used for other things. The other week I was using it to do some logging (dragging a load of dead elm out of a gulley). It ran solidly from 8.00am to mid-day only stopping to spool out again. It did this with no sign of over heating or problems. On the other hand if you were doing a challenge and need to winch a 90 up a short slope in a hurry a 8274 would be what you want. Having said that, the figures listed above for line speed under full load make for interesting reading! Like the man says, horses for courses...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguevogue Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Imagine if you would a Tree Surgeon who does a bit of fencing on the side. He hauls timber, pulls stumps, lowers a fair few branches, does a bit of self recovery. He wants to use Plasma. He has a budget of 1k. What does he buy? If he drank in my pub he could get an 8274, a Range Rover to put it on and enough change for a slap up dinner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Here's a graphical representaiton for the Warn winches discussed. The M8000 is surprisingly faster than the XD9000 over its full load range! The 8274 starts fastest and ends up slowest and the 9.5XP is the quickest of all except for no load speed. and a comparison of current draw - nothing between them: Perhaps a good solution would be an M8000 with a bling motor on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted March 3, 2006 Author Share Posted March 3, 2006 Thanks Charles What is starting to bug me is that M8000 I sold to Mark last year for next to nothing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Bish's first graph shows that above 4,000lb there's not a huge amount in it, and it also shows why the 8274 is popular for competitions, due to the big difference in speed at no or low loads, consider..... Power out 50ft of cable, winch in 10ft at full load, then winch back in the remaining 40ft at no load, 8274 would win hands down. Also when drive assist allows the winch cable to be come unloaded or at least reduced load the 8274 can take up that slack much quicker. Looking at the graphs is the 8274 significantly higher geared than the others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted March 3, 2006 Author Share Posted March 3, 2006 Good point and a good question But then what more would one expect? Edited to say: The 1tonne pull section - possibly the most commonly used for winching* is considerably faster again a major point *Lantra Winching figures 2003/LRE Winching figures 2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robhybrid Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Bish's first graph shows that above 4,000lb there's not a huge amount in it, and it also shows why the 8274 is popular for competitions, due to the big difference in speed at no or low loads, consider.....Power out 50ft of cable, winch in 10ft at full load, then winch back in the remaining 40ft at no load, 8274 would win hands down. Also when drive assist allows the winch cable to be come unloaded or at least reduced load the 8274 can take up that slack much quicker. Looking at the graphs is the 8274 significantly higher geared than the others? Hit the nail on the head. For comps 8274. For hauling logs mm or H***y Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Bish's first graph shows that above 4,000lb there's not a huge amount in it, and it also shows why the 8274 is popular for competitions, due to the big difference in speed at no or low loads, consider.....Power out 50ft of cable, winch in 10ft at full load, then winch back in the remaining 40ft at no load, 8274 would win hands down. Also when drive assist allows the winch cable to be come unloaded or at least reduced load the 8274 can take up that slack much quicker. Looking at the graphs is the 8274 significantly higher geared than the others? I notice that some people are fitting nets on their bonnets so that, when winching in a competition, they do not re-spool the cable but rather coil it up and store it on the bonnet. This on the basis that they will need it again in a few minutes and it saves time winding it in and out all day. Who cares about no load speed then? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 RE: Tony - without starting an argument, if you take a genuine albright and a Warn solenoid block apart you will see the differences. This doesn't however make them any less capable, they are simply a copy of a good product which is itself a copy of a good product. Often when the Chinese copy good products they add a bit of improvement along the way. I think you will find that your basic calculations for full load line speed are a bit too simplified. I don't know the calcs but I think Newton/Meters comes into the equation and IIRC N/m is not a constant force measure but an escallating (?) force. Granted they were simple calcs Dave the Warn contactor not the warn solenoid has An Albright sticker on it, but I haven't got one to take apart so accept it could be a chinese copy. Will Warne has one on his IIRC is this study in winches for reasearch for a TOR article? or general intrest. For the record I have Albrights from David Bowyer and Phil not the Warn one as it is as usual more expensive. RE:Imagine if you would a Tree Surgeon who does a bit of fencing on the side. He hauls timber, pulls stumps, lowers a fair few branches, does a bit of self recovery. He wants to use Plasma. He has a budget of 1k. What does he buy? Buys a Husky and fits an Albright solenoid fits Plasma He has a budget of 600 quid what does he buy? Saves up for a Husky he has a budget of 2K what does he buy?buys a Husky with albright/plasma and trousers £1000 A husky is perfect for the work you describe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted March 3, 2006 Author Share Posted March 3, 2006 Tony, The study came about because of an article for another magasine and a series of questions work. BTW the EP9 runs no load at 44ft/min and 7ft at 9000/lbs, the EP12 runs 37 ft/min no load and 7ft/min at 12,000 and the EP15 runs 35ft/min no load and 7ft/min at 150000. Whoops is that okay now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Er, bit of a typo Dave methinks....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthdicky Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 EP15 runs 35ft/min no load and 47ft/min at 150000. Wow, thats some winch From what I've read about M8000's they seem very prone to mud/water ingress? Might just be the bumper that LR sold them with though - most I've seen were hidden under the front bumper. I initially went for a second hand mechanical PTO winch because it was cheap compared to an electric one. Of course, I've now come to realise that there is no such thing as a cheap winch. Probably spent about £1000 on it overall but now have a fully rebuilt, strong, reliable (hopefully) setup that will pull me through anything at any speed that I'm comfortable with. Also got Plasma and the PTO is protected too so that should be it for now other than servicing. No worrying about motors burning out or batteries going flat. If I end up in deep water then I'll have more things to worry about than just getting out and carrying on with a competition. My seat would be wet to start with... Most of the time when it's actually under load I use 1st (much slower than driving speed) as it's so controllable and will stop the moment I touch the clutch. Normally respool in 4th as it gives a good enough speed without knackering the UJ's. Haven't actually bothered to time it as I could stick it in 5th and hit 5000rpm and be faster than anything else, but I doubt the driveshafts would hold up If I was just doing competitions I'd probably change it for an 8274 as most of the time you're pulling with no load and time is of the essence, and I could get a far better approach angle with a high mounted bumper. As it's an all round car really that has to work the next day I'm not planning to change it anytime soon though Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 I like my Milemarker - as people have said, they're slow but robust. Something that hasn't been raised is run-on after you let go of the button. If Mr Lumberjack is trying to lower a heavy limb (or adjust his women's underwear) I can see a 2ft error in lowering can make a lot of difference to whoever's underneath. Charles - can we add the Milemarker to that graph (not the Current graph - it's unfair ) and make the scale logarithmic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Something that hasn't been raised is run-on after you let go of the button. If Mr Lumberjack is trying to lower a heavy limb (or adjust his women's underwear) I can see a 2ft error in lowering can make a lot of difference to whoever's underneath. Mmmm a good point You don't want a lot of run on when you're raising and lowering this either (or a dodgy brake) A Husky would be the only commonly used electric I'd consider comparable to the MM for this sort of thing. The 8274 was too unpredictable IMHO, but as said numerous times before, beats most things hands down for challenges. "Go" and "Stop" meaning "Go" and "Stop" is important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bush65 Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 ...Both can be improved by bigger motors / pumps etc but the hydraulics seem to be much more reliable and far stronger...Lara. There is another option to speed-up hyd MM winches. Replace the stock gerotor motor with a smaller displacement geroller motor. There is a large range of LSHT (low speed high torque) hyd motors from different manufacturers and they have similar options in the mounting flanges and output shaft (which makes for simple bolt on exchange. Some have the same port arrangement, but this is less important. The geroller motors are more efficient, have higher rated speeds and pressure. A smaller displacement motor produces less torque at the same pressure. But it is a simple matter to determine a maximum allowable pressure to suit the rest of the rest of the hyd system. Then choose the smallest motor displacement that will give the required torque. Or if the pressure can safely be increased by nn%, then reduce the motor displacement by the same nn%. My ideal winch system would use an overcentre variable volume pump (PTO mounted of course) arranged as a hydrostatic transmission (pump ports are connected directly to motor ports). Then the control lever controls the pump direction and volume. ...Looking at the graphs is the 8274 significantly higher geared than the others? The gear reduction ratios are very similar. But the 8274 has a larger diam drum. The gearing of the 8274 (triple reduction spur gears) should be more efficient than the triple reduction epicyclic gearing used in low mount winches. The Mile Marker only uses double reduction epicyclic gearing (single reduction for high speed retrieve) as the motor speed is lower to start with (but motor torque is much higher) (compared to electric winch motors). I notice that some people are fitting nets on their bonnets so that, when winching in a competition, they do not re-spool the cable but rather coil it up and store it on the bonnet...Chris In Aus they use a pair of "horns" on the winch bar and the rope is wound around the horns (usually in a figure 8) instead of winding the rope back onto the winch. The entire rope must be wound onto the drum before the start of each stage. If the horns are set-up correctly, I think this would save time over the net on bonnet method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 IIRC RedIbex (and maybe other ibexes) uses a pair of motorcycle footpegs for the "horns" to wrap the rope round. An A-bar would provide much the same facility, thought about fitting one partly for that reason though I rarely have to do 2 recoveries in quick succession unless I really screw up!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
widget Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 I like my Milemarker - as people have said, they're slow but robust. Something that hasn't been raised is run-on after you let go of the button. If Mr Lumberjack is trying to lower a heavy limb (or adjust his women's underwear) I can see a 2ft error in lowering can make a lot of difference to whoever's underneath. I have only used two winches - an 8274 and a Milemarker. The 8274 had a massive amount of run-on, and the Milemarker none. We had a great deal of difficulty using a ground anchor with the 8274 because it was too fast! The ground anchor was difficult to control as the winch took up the strain. By flicking the winch on/off it slowed the unit down and made it more controllable. I'm the fat-bloke on the hand control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangoman Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Dave, could you find out the spec for me on a tirfor overun current draw winch bumper load speed etc surprised you are intrested in the champion, because you always said the 8274 was to fast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted March 4, 2006 Author Share Posted March 4, 2006 Nick, Didn't you know, the faster your winch the better driver you will be - that's where I have been going wrong for so long! Tirfor Over run - only if you fall on your arse Current draw - 6 hotcross buns per pull Winch Bumper - only when it hits your shin as you take it out of the vehicle Load Speed - depends on how high the back of the vehicle is and how dodgy your back is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minivin Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Nick, Didn't you know, the faster your winch the better driver you will be - that's where I have been going wrong for so long! I aint saying any more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Im saying nothing......... Im sure someone would only come and have a paddy if I did you can however change gear on a milemarker with a pneumatic solenoid The coolest cable holders Ive seen are stainless steel dog dishes fixed to the bonnet Bush - cheers for the Parker info, Ive got a Parker pump hooked to the dog clutch, giving 63.8ltr/min, variable speed - should be cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jordan Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Jonathan B, Where is that lane in the second pic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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