Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Evenin' Peeps I have done some major tweaks with the 90s suspension.... loads of tweaks, ..........over months of thought and work, ......fabrication ......ideas, (some worked some did not - ) - but I have sort of now reached a sort of 'crossroads' Try as I might I have run out of 'options' and 'ideas' to get any more 'movement' out of the front axle , using the existing type of setup ie std jockey arms etc - I think I need to get more radical if I want any more movement ?? Heres what I've have got to so far..... http://www.fuddymuckers.co.uk/gallery/kitt...n%20testing.wmv .......if yer curious .............so am thinking of 3 linking .............or something else maybe ???? maybe that I haven't even thought about ? I post this question as I will be interested in the views : 1. Safari Gard, and Gon2Far are the only 2 companies I know of who make / supply 3 Link ??? views please on both ?, and I seriously do NOT like the QT **** on the Gon2far unit, so probably wouldn't buy that period !...... Are there any other makers / suppliers of 3 link units ? ? 2. Option 2 is I could build my own, .....if so how could the above be improved upon ..........if I built from scratch ? 3. If anyone has a 2nd hand unit they want to sell, ...........then PM me ! as I'm a huntin' at the mo Discuss ......and I look forward to some input to help me think through.......... or other ideas other than 3 link ? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 or other ideas other than 3 link ? Nige, If you take the front wheels off and replace them with a single nosewheel like a Reliant Robin, then you'll be guaranteed to always have all the wheels on the ground Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOA 93 Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Nige, Uptil last weekend I had a 3 link all worked out, easy enough really. Then I came across this http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/...pic.php?t=74412 on the toyota forum when searching for 3 link info. The beauty of this system is it can be locked up for road use and then get 3-link type articulation when off road. Bit of fab work....right up your street. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOA 93 Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Pics So waddya think eh? Andy Edited: Not sure how to make them larger. Sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 10, 2006 Author Share Posted August 10, 2006 Ta for that, have printed off the thread and will have a good read... Here's the pics, hopefully bigger Heres another, which I have looked at many a time to work out whats been done ! Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 3 link and 280BHP on the road Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 10, 2006 Author Share Posted August 10, 2006 That has crossed my mind too I did say "Thinking" about 3 Link hence why I have also asked for any other options etc ? Nige PS You also forgot to mention "Very Soft Springs" too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MogLite Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 3 link and 280BHP on the road Absolutely - I wouldn't How about a wristed arm, they are popular in the Bronco world and it is basically hinging and pinning one of your hockey sticks. Lots of dead links out there in Internet land but this one seems to work Option 2 - slotted bushes from Sam Overton is Aus - didn't someone here have a set of them ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 If you take the front wheels off and replace them with a single nosewheel like a Reliant Robin, then you'll be guaranteed to always have all the wheels on the ground Except on bends. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 I thought higed arms, while looking good on the ramp, had proved pretty unpredicable off road. Slotted bushes certianly work. The limit becomes the binding between hockey stick and axle brackets. There may be room to develop this idea further with some custom arms/brackets. If I've read this right from OL the setup above uses hockey sticks but with the front bush chopped off. Much as Andy has done on Moglite. The bracketry that bolts across the axle is then somehow maintaining caster angles but has no link back to the chassis. I can only assume it somehow braces to the oposing hockey stick but ca't quite see how yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 How about a wristed arm Or take one bolt out of the front of one radius arm for 'off road' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon White Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 Nige - that burgundy one is on portals. There is a write up somewhere about the build of it. Have a look through the archives over on Pirate4x4. And how many more times do I have to tell you - 2 leaf fronts 3 leaf rears!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 I prefer what I have. 3 link with the third link above the diff, the lower links dropped 2 1/2'' from the stock position, all links made from rear lowers with the pin end of scrap front radius arms welded into one end. 9'' of vertical separation at axle, 4 '' at chassis. If you use a wristed arm, be sure to strengthen the brackets on the non wristed side as they will be under greater stress. The resistance to torque reaction will be much less with a wristed system, so expect axle hop. When a stock radius arm, or a 3 link articulates at speed, the castor change is minimal, but when a wristed axle articulates at speed the castor change can make for some spooky handling. You would probably get better overall performance if you removed the left front radius arm bolt and modified the axle bracket to provide clearance for that end of the radius arm to go up and down unhindered and without damaging either the axle bracket or the bushing. I am not convinced about slotted bushes. the gain in travel would be limited at best, and I could be wrong but I think the slots would compromise torque reaction control under brakes and under power. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 my question would be what do you want the car to do Nige? are you willing to trade on road ability for off road? if theres a defined end point then reverse engineering makes life nice and easy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOA 93 Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 The beauty of this Oz set up is you keep your standard radius arms, no chopping. Only the forward mounts on the axle get cut off, this new beam then connects the front pair of bushes in the radius arms together. This beam is pivoted in the middle of the axle, so when the axle articulates instead of the radius arms trying to twist the axle this beam just pivots slightly, the beam just transfers some of the locating action of the radius arms from the outside to the centre just like a three link, When on the road this beam can be bolted or pinned so that it can't move, which then gives you standard road holding. I don't think this system could be made bolt-on, I can't see any way around not cutting off your forward axle to radius arm mounts. I think its exactly what I've been looking for, I will seek advice on what to use for the middle pivot. I mocked this up in timber on my 'mule' on Sunday and although it makes the front axle look a little busy its easily doable on a Rover. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOA 93 Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 I prefer what I have. 3 link with the third link above the diff, the lower links dropped 2 1/2'' from the stock position, all links made from rear lowers with the pin end of scrap front radius arms welded into one end. 9'' of vertical separation at axle, 4 '' at chassis. If you use a wristed arm, be sure to strengthen the brackets on the non wristed side as they will be under greater stress. The resistance to torque reaction will be much less with a wristed system, so expect axle hop. When a stock radius arm, or a 3 link articulates at speed, the castor change is minimal, but when a wristed axle articulates at speed the castor change can make for some spooky handling. You would probably get better overall performance if you removed the left front radius arm bolt and modified the axle bracket to provide clearance for that end of the radius arm to go up and down unhindered and without damaging either the axle bracket or the bushing. I am not convinced about slotted bushes. the gain in travel would be limited at best, and I could be wrong but I think the slots would compromise torque reaction control under brakes and under power. Bill. Bill, I was trying to find the info you are describing, when I came across the OL thread, the offset for your upper middle link, am I right in assuming that that compensates for torque steer, rather than make matters worse? I was always happier with thoughts of having two arms resisting braking forces rather than just the centre one, but was worried that the middle link had to be in the centre, will the Panhard being LHD or RHD make any contribution to all this tourque reaction. Wristed? Do you mean cranked or bent? Cheers Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 not sure what to suggest on suspension but.... Its good to see how much exitement you get out of a 2ft deep ditch! Ok, seriously, I think everybody looks at more droop in their suspension, But I think that bump is almost just as important. I know you are of similar thoughts nigel. What I tried to achieve on my car is 10" travel, equally bump and rebound, and I tried to get the travel front and rear balanced, rather than mainly rear. I personally dont believe max travel is the most important thing. Daan Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callum Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread....56697&pp=25 some info/pics of haultech slotted bushes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael calvert Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 Maverick three linked his fron axle on his ninety using an adapted fron x-member i think but he was running with air suspension and portals try contact him for some help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 Bill, I was trying to find the info you are describing, when I came across the OL thread, the offset for your upper middle link, am I right in assuming that that compensates for torque steer, rather than make matters worse? I was always happier with thoughts of having two arms resisting braking forces rather than just the centre one, but was worried that the middle link had to be in the centre, will the Panhard being LHD or RHD make any contribution to all this tourque reaction. Wristed? Do you mean cranked or bent? Cheers Andy Andy, My engine doesn't produce anything resembling torque. So I don't get torque steer. My brakes are pretty sharpish though,(reverse torque) but I dont get brake steer either. My 3rd link is offset to the right. Due to different engine on the 110 County on Volvos I built had it's 3rd link is offset to the left. With the antiroll bar disconnected on the rear axle it oversteers a little, not too bad though. It was stable enough to pass engineering certification brake fade and retardation test on a very wet day. 15 crash stops from 30 mph plus 1 from 60 mph without time to cool off. There was a discussion on Pirate re offset 3 link suspensions and the consensus was that it is preferable to have the 3rd offset to the right. What I call a wristed radius arm is one the is cut and modified to have a hinge pin for offroad work and a locking pin so that normal performance is restored for road use. I think regardless of how the 3 links are arranged, they all contribute to resisting braking torque. Because my top link is much further from the axle shaft centreline than the lower links, the compressive and tensile loads under brakes and drive on the link and bushings is probably less than what each of the lower links see anyway, whereas the 3rd link on say the Safari guard design would see enormous loads by comparison. That is why they require a much more substantial crossmember than our setups. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 Maverick three linked his fron axle on his ninety using an adapted fron x-member i think but he was running with air suspension and portalstry contact him for some help Ask Alan Kemp about some of the issues he found with this setup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 It was stable enough to pass engineering certification brake fade and retardation test on a very wet day. 15 crash stops from 30 mph plus 1 from 60 mph without time to cool off. Wow, that is thourough! Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 10, 2006 Author Share Posted August 10, 2006 THanks all, interesting views : Bill, have you some pics of your set up you could please post up ? Anyone gor views / knowledge of good / bad points of the Safari gard set up, or any pics of other set ups ? Keep it all coming..............still thinking Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steffUK Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 I was running the SG 3-link for 2 years now. Things to point out are that you certainly have to adjust your driving style! My 90ty with HD OME handled like a go cart on the road before I changed the setup to the Equipe4x4 kit estremo with softer italien springs and a SG 3 link in front. Quick entries into roundabouts sees the front end corners dive much more. Crucial is the shock setup. I was in the end running Oram shocks with external reservoir which can be dialled in to ultra hard for road handling (so hard that your not able to compress them by hand...). You're off road stability is different too as you do not see the car leaning anymor as all the movement is in the axle and not in the hole front of the car. The 3 ling was therefore a good addition to the amount of travel I already had in the back. I do not believe that there are many benefits of a 3-link in mud, but on technical sections (not necessary rocks) it is a great thing to have. The best read with regard to "scientific" testing of a 3-link and compare it to "traditional" setups is http://www.yellowdefender.com/twist_off_19...esult/index.htm This is now 7 years old but the basics of the SG3L has not changed. I have some pics of my car in twist off positions but can not (i.e. too lazy to set up a photobucket) post them. If someone wants to post them on my behalf PM me and I will e-mail him the pics. Cheers steff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 10, 2006 Author Share Posted August 10, 2006 And here they are : Now Steff, you go and have a nice sit down after all that work E_mailing them to me Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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