FridgeFreezer Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 A mate in the business sent me this from one of the trade mags, thought people may find it interesting... Hopefully everyone knows how to read a PDF these days: New_rr.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Frimodt Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Looks just as crappy as any other modern day car. Lots of thin-walled, recycled stamped metal, all glued together, and will start corroding the day the car rolls out the factory. Where has the craftmanship gone? how are these cars suppose to come to any age? (well I know they aren't, apparently its better for the environment to reproduce every 5 years, than making something that lasts) And the worst part is that they still uphold the statement that it is the best quality ever made. Bullocks if you ask me. Had a discussion the other day with a sales manager from a Danish Mercedes dealer, he kept telling me how much better the Mercedes Sprinter was compared to the Ford Transit that we stood next to, although the Ford was exactly half the price, and when looking at used models only half as rusty! But to this day, ask anybody, they will say a Mercedes is of a way better quality than a Ford. Okay, but where? I ask. Sorry, just had to get it out my system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPendrey Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I noted it says "The most significant development is the one piece body side pressing". Now I don't know if that's the outer skin, or the inner, but whichever way it'll cost an insurer and therefore all of us a small fortune each time one of these gets damaged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 What they are doing is interesting - but I have two main worries about it's structure. Firstly, in the event of a crash - it will almost certainly be a write off. The article talks about the body side pressing being the biggest in the industry - but that also means a dent in the wing will need the whole side of the car replacing! The second is the fatigue life. It may be that they are only interested in that for the length of the warranty - but I worry a little about how much longer many of the structural components will last after the warranty has expired. Wandering around my local scrap yard, most of the cars there are about 5 years old. Many of them have not been crashed and thus mush have just expired. In the corner they have a load of old cars in the 10 to 30 year old bracket - but there is very little inbetween. I think the current stock of vehicles must have a design life of 5 to 10 years before they are scrap - and I think the new RR is likely to be one of them! At least, made of Ali, it will be worth a few quid when you weigh it in! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Ah yes, everyone misses the craftsmanship of British Leyland, they don't make 'em like that anymore! Anyone would think Aluminium was kryptonite LR have been using it here and there for some time you know and I hear some crazies even glue cars together out of ali these days I've owned two 10-year-old Freelanders now and I have to say that compared to the BL/Rover era designed stuff they are well made and don't crumble away to dust. I'd challenge anyone to go and pick a 10+ year old freebie and compare it to the state of anything else from the LR range of the same year for rust and things falling off. A lot of modern stuff isn't made to last much beyond the warranty, but that's economics - if your competitors are doing it, you can't afford not to follow really if you're Mr Ford or Mr Vauxhall. Likewise the crash thing - if the price of meeting the crash safety specs is higher likelihood it'll be a write-off then so be it, the people who walked away from the crash are unlikely to complain. I really do think that LR try as far as they can to make stuff that lasts, but given the standards they have to meet for everything else you can't expect them to go on making Range Rovers out of girders and actually sell any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 A mate in the business sent me this from one of the trade mags, thought people may find it interesting... Yes, thankyou. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Wandering around my local scrap yard, most of the cars there are about 5 years old. Many of them have not been crashed and thus mush have just expired. In the corner they have a load of old cars in the 10 to 30 year old bracket - but there is very little inbetween. I think the current stock of vehicles must have a design life of 5 to 10 years before they are scrap - and I think the new RR is likely to be one of them! I think that car manufacturers care very little about longevity these days. Certainly seems to be the way that eurobox car manufacturing is going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I buck the trend. Most of us has spend days, if not months cutting out rust, replacing chassis and bulkheads and what have you. I just sold my pug 206, 10 years old and not a single rust spot. Do you still see cars that rust? Not anymore you don’t. Do we see monday morning cars were everything stops working? Well, only the range rover p38. Engines have moved on a lot, 100k miles used to be the end of an engine, these days it’s not even halfway. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Frimodt Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Hmm Monday morning cars, like having a throttle stick open because of a carpet? No we never see stuff like that, especially from a renowned manufacturer.. And though you are right on the pug, daan, trust me modern cars do rust, just as much as ever, and really, is 10 years really that impressive? If you think about it, the only really rust prone land rovers are because of bad quality steel, a quality that now is the norm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoltan Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Give it a few years and all the Chelsea tractors will be made this way, no sign of the general public getting less fat or cars getting smaller Sub woofer in the chassis rails innit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Soren - I have some car magazines from the 70's and 80's that I found in an old desk, they are looking at used cars ~3-5 years old and saying it's *good* that there's only a few rust HOLES, the shocks aren't quite dead, and that the exhaust hasn't fallen off yet, etc. etc. What kills cars these days is the fact they are relatively a LOT cheaper than they used to be but the cost of repair (which is mostly down to labour rates for skilled mechanics/welders etc.) is that much higher. If you head to places like Bulgaria, Romania, Russia they import scrap/MOT failed cars from western europe (especially Germany) and run them for another 10+ years - mainly because the labour rate is a lot lower relative to the cost of a car, so they can afford to do stuff like welding, whittling panels, building one good engine from 2 dead ones, etc. and still be in pocket on a car that would have a street value of ~£1500 over here and be a write-off if it needed a set of tyres and a T-cut. The garage near me want £100 an hour to work on stuff, plus parts, it very quickly becomes uneconomical to do time-consuming work like welding, spraying, or engine/gearbox rebuilds. Also, reading the old magazines, people used to maintain cars - mainly because they HAD to: change oil, check points, sort out rust patches, etc. etc. whereas these days you can get into a car in the showroom and do nothing to it for 100k with the reasonable expectation that it would still be running, albeit not fantastically well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicks90 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 modern cars are brilliant - but have their faults. main fault is that the majority of manufacturers still make their vehicles to be as cost effective to fleet operators as possible - eg 60k miles and 4 years. The running and warranty costs during this period are all they care about in order to secure good fleet sales. If it falls to pieces a month after that period, they have designed it perfectly! however, it is still much cheaper to run a car nowadays than it was 20 years ago. Rust and poor quality was EPIC back then. [casts mind back to fiesta and escorts i owned] yup, they were properly rubbish back then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Frimodt Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Some fair points John, but cheap cars have and will always be poor in quality one way or the other. What really annoys me as that you would think that with all the knowledge we have now, we would be able to make a car that just works, and keeps doing so, instead it seems like the general build, and materiel quality is going downhill.take the LRs from the BL era, they were really badly made, yet they exist in great numbers still, because of simplicity, and an easy to repair design. All in all it doesn't matter whether you scrap a car because iy has rusted away, or because of some little electronic widget that costs twice the value of the car. And so therefore I do not think we progressed one bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Soren - the industry progressed but LR owners didn't. The electronic widgetry is not that hard, but LR owners are absolutely terrified of it or troubleshooting it even though it's mostly basic control systems with a few inputs and outputs. Give a LR owner a broken gearbox and a bent spoon and they'll happily rebuild it, but give them a multimeter and a circuit diagram and they run away complaining about modern rubbish. Likewise the majority of the independent garages have not kept up with the change in technology and are only starting to up their game 10+ years after they should have been paying attention. Cheap cars will always be built cheaply, whatever that entails, I don't see how you'll ever get round that one - but compare a Citroen 2CV or original Mini with an Iq, Smart car, etc. and I know which is better made. People will forgive the faults of the "classic" ones, but grumble about far less serious problems on the newer ones. Look how much Defender owners will chalk up to "character" compared to, well, almost any other type of vehicle. Electronic widgets are not magic, and all the technology is out there to diagnose, repair, re-manufacture, reverse-engineer and upgrade them - it's just that most LR owners don't know about it and aren't interested any more than they are in basket weaving or baking cakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Very interesting read! As for all those bitching about rust: you did notice where it says "aluminium", yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 We're not all scared to death by electronics Although it is amazing the level of phobia some people seem to have of them. Some of the modern diagnostic kit is brilliant, my old car had OBDII. Whenever there was a problem you just took a look at the fault codes and it became obvious what was wrong, even when the AA chap had scratched his head (and other parts) for over an hour and failed to work out the problem The biggest problem with vehicle electronics tends to be poor modification over the years by previous owners...... which seems to be because if you try going into a car shop (not shopping online) they'll sell you all manor of gizmos to fit to your car ...... and then give you those poxy scotch lock things to fit it with Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Well I'm looking forward to a total stepchange in car design, which I don't think can be too far off now?? Occurs to me that all the problems we can read into many current designs are there because it's all based on a 100+ year old principle at the pinacle of its development (with probably not much further to go??) and simply too much is being squeezed into a small space and it must be getting really hard for designers & manufacturers to bring together whats expected and cost/practicality. It'll be awesome when someone comes up with a good power source for an electric car, which I think will really open the doors for some inovative design again and a change in thinking (people weigh ~85Kg, why do we need 3000Kg machines to move us??) might enable manufacturers to break away from this trend which says they can only add extra equipment/weight/make cars bigger/more complicated and not simplify. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicks90 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 might enable manufacturers to break away from this trend which says they can only add extra equipment/weight/make cars bigger/more complicated and not simplify. people dont want simple - how well did the CityRover do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 people dont want simple - how well did the CityRover do? Very true - I remember reading a US review of the new (Gen 3) RR and they complained that you had to open and lift the tailgate BY HAND! So, that's another button, motor, linkage, control box, etc. etc. that someone will have to squeeze in... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 It'll be awesome when someone comes up with a good power source for an electric car, which I think will really open the doors for some inovative design again and a change in thinking (people weigh ~85Kg, why do we need 3000Kg machines to move us??) I couldn't agree more! (I am slightly biased). However, I'm not convinced that the power density in batteries will improve sufficiently to give the same range/performance that a liquid fueled engine can any time soon. 1 Gallon of Petrol is the equivalent of 30kWh of electricity or the same usable energy as 60 standard Land Rover Batteries (1200kg) or 400kg of current LiFePO batteries. To give the same power density, batteries need to improve by a factor of 100x - and that's not going to happen soon. I think what is needed is a change in expectation. There are exceptions, but on average, 80% of cars drives less than 20 miles in a day. The percentage of days where people need a range in excess of 400 miles is tiny. I think that in time people will accept that the economy of an Electric vehicle is worth the fact that for the occasional long journies you will need to catch the train or hire a fuel car. I read an estimate that within 10 years, diesel is likely to cost the equivalent of £20 per litre. That in itself will limit journies to those that are essential. For many people, having a vehicle that gives the equivalent of 400mpg will be worth a range limited to say 200 miles and accept that you will either have to stop for a charge or catch the train! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 .......I read an estimate that within 10 years, diesel is likely to cost the equivalent of £20 per litre....... No point saving for a galv chassis and stainless exhaust then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 No point saving for a galv chassis and stainless exhaust then Save for a honking big eleccy motor instead! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 I reckon serial hybrids make most sense - a few batteries, big leccy motor, and a small efficient generator motor to keep things topped up. The batteries then only need to act as "load averaging", supplying the big hits for acceleration that a small generator can't manage. It takes very few HP to actually cruise along at 70mph, it's just getting there that takes the effort. The generator doesn't need to be flexible, it can be built to run perfectly at one speed only which allows greater optimisations compared to a car engine. A serial-hybrid landy is on my "to do" list, unfortunately it's somewhere around page 100 and I'm still working through page 1 at the moment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Frimodt Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I too, find it quite interesting with the electric motorization, and have often thought about buying me one of the eleccy Enduro bikes like the KTM Freeride E. Is simply ideal for a bit of adventuring on the local tracks, as it won't pi$$ off everybody because of the noise! Furthermore the electric engine will give an absolutely perfect power/torque curve for enduro! The Freeride can go for about 30 mins at a very high pace, so should be plenty to give me a sweat And the recharge is only 1,5 hours. But regarding mileage on combustion-engined cars, a thing that has me wondering is the vast diffence in mpg? Take a "SMART" car for instance, everything has been stripped and it is build with only one thing in mind, being cheap to run, yet it doesn't manage a better mpg than the good old Golf 2 Diesel! And by all means is a Golf more comfortable (if you could get a new one that is) And some V8's simply swallow the whole gasstation whereas some actually manages a decent mpg. Maybe more time/money should be spend finding some good norms and rules from which to build/manage engines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacr2man Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Problem with newer vehicles apart from the workshop costs , is on going maintenance expenses , eg how many RR p38 range rovers have had all their airbags replaced at 10yrs as recommended ? i seem to have a different recollection of the dismal standard of older vehicles , or maybe I was just extremely lucky ? The main "advances" with current vehicles is electronic carp that reduces the demands on drivers ability, or lack thereof eg lecky windows to self parking , climate control , the roads are slower and becoming ever more so, and more cars can reach 120+ Why ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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