To all those "I'll have a go at doing the wiring" types

[A Twig]

Don't.

If you know what you're doing, great. Do it and do it properly.

If you don't know what you are doing, either learn, or find someone who does.

Having uncovered yet more wiring monstrosities by the PO (and explaining why I've had some headlight issues) while replacing my wing today, it's just not funny any more.

I still havent got to the bottom of my intermittent alarm fault or why the O/S sidelight blows the bulb every time I put a new one in.

So just don't do it, I don't care if you think its easy, or if you think "I can just". Don't. That is all...

[Anderzander]

Why ? What could possibly go wrong ?

[JeffR]

I feel our pain, just sorted this out:

[CwazyWabbit]

Lol that's nothing, I found wiring that was just twisted together and not even taped ......

[JeffR]

Lol that's nothing, I found wiring that was just twisted together and not even taped ......

Sorted similar for the headlamps before I broke the bloody things this morning.....

[ajh]

Agreed 100%, I just put in an ISIS system on a 110 that was wired with about 10 additional accessories as well... it was; interesting.

[JeffR]

On my old 11o some idiot had re-wired the front indicators with 70amp cable, took me flamin months to work out why they blinked so slowly. Only found out when I converted to NAS style......

[A Twig]

On my old 11o some idiot had re-wired the front indicators with 70amp cable, took me flamin months to work out why they blinked so slowly. Only found out when I converted to NAS style......

If I could "Like" this I would. Genuine tears of laughter!

[Aragorn]

Why would the cable CSA affect the flash rate?

[JeffR]

Why would the cable CSA affect the flash rate?

Massively different cross sectional are and increased resistance according to a mate who's an electrical engineer. All I can tell you is that the NAS ones blink at the normal rate with sensible cables. I don't do electickery

[CwazyWabbit]

The increased CSA would decrease the resistance thus increasing the current flow. Flasher relays are designed to flash quicker when less curent is drawn hence why the go mad when you use LEDs. So I guess drawing more current would slow them down.

[Aragorn]

The point is the resistance of the wire is negligible compared with the resistance of the bulb

Connecting a light bulb up with some 350A jump leads doesnt make it draw any more power than it would when connected with the standard size cable.

Something else going on i guess.

[Nigelw]

I did loads of wiring on my project, I am no auto sparks but suffice to say I learned to do things correctly when I was an apprentice on the farm, lets just say, a steel rule across your knuckles when you make a small mistake, I watched my fellow apprentice get the rule for using scotch locks when he fitted the CB in the tractor, after that I learned his lesson and asked what I should need and do to fit it correctly, been doing it fine ever since.

[Landy-Novice]

been therem done that and had it done correctly.

also found many crushed/chaffed wires, a few twiddled together, many chocolate blocks, 2 inline fuses on the same wire, load of melted loom wires and not to mention fuses wrapped in tin foil.

but when its done and working, you know you can smile without worrying.

(bad photo but angel eyes, LED sidelights and hazards)

[CwazyWabbit]

The point is the resistance of the wire is negligible compared with the resistance of the bulb

Connecting a light bulb up with some 350A jump leads doesnt make it draw any more power than it would when connected with the standard size cable.

Something else going on i guess.

I understand where you are coming from however uprating the wiring going to headlamps does make a noticeable difference to their brightness (which must be from icreased current flow), now whilst indicators are not as high powered as headlights there must still be some effect, whether it is noticable or not I can't say but I wouldn't dismiss without testing the idea.

[landroversforever]

I understand where you are coming from however uprating the wiring going to headlamps does make a noticeable difference to their brightness (which must be from icreased current flow), now whilst indicators are not as high powered as headlights there must still be some effect, whether it is noticable or not I can't say but I wouldn't dismiss without testing the idea.

With headlights (assuming normal bulbs not HID or LED). I thought the increased brightness was down to having less voltage drop?

[miketomcat]

been therem done that and had it done correctly.

also found many crushed/chaffed wires, a few twiddled together, many chocolate blocks, 2 inline fuses on the same wire, load of melted loom wires and not to mention fuses wrapped in tin foil.

All this was probably done by a "professional" as tow bars did and I believe still do come with scotchlocks. I removed 15 of the bl##dy things from behind a mini Speedo once don't even know how they got them all in there.

Mike

[mmgemini]

Well pointed out Mike. "genuine" kits come with the proper connectors to the loom. The so called professionals don't like to pay the price for those, so they use 7 core and Scotch Locks.

There was some places on my Defender that were done in a workshop. I wouldn't have let work like that out of my doors.

[Mo Murphy]

Rule one - fuses, fuse all new circuits.

Rule two - put said fuses where you can get to them, not behind the dash Better still, Paul Mc on here sells terminals to let you use the unused spaces in your main fuse box.

Doing the above won't make you a good electrician but it will stop your pride and joy going up in smoke when you really **** up the wiring

Mo

[rovernut]

Believe it or not, even professional Tow Bar fitting companies use Scotch Locks by the thousand in a year. The come back rate is very low.

When used on low current systems like side lights ( 21watts and below) they can be a very effective connection.

If fitted using ordinary pliers the pressure tends to bias to one side and can sometimes break the wire. Proper Scotch lock pliers close evenly and can't close any further than the thickness of the lock. From memory, we were ok to use them on all vehicles apart from Mercedes as far as warranty was concerned. Later vehicles with by-pass relays were connected in a slightly different way using a telephone type push together connector. but even this type of connection breaks into the insulation and grips the core in a fork, much the same as a scotch lock really.

Having said all that, I would only ever use them for tow bar electrics, never for accessories unless linking in the feed to a relay.

[GW8IZR]

Yes - millions of insulation displacement connectors are used world wide for safety critical systems and the failure rate is insignificant

A baboon buying a blister pack of cheap Scotchloks from Halfords and using them on the wrong sizes of wire isn't really a fair measure of their effectiveness.

[rovernut]

Well pointed out Mike. "genuine" kits come with the proper connectors to the loom. The so called professionals don't like to pay the price for those, so they use 7 core and Scotch Locks.

There was some places on my Defender that were done in a workshop. I wouldn't have let work like that out of my doors.

You maybe need to check some of these kits and examine what you get from Witter, Brink, Bosal, PCT and Westfalia. And don't forget, Vehicle manufacturers kits are not produced in house. I have seen some pretty awful manufacturers kits. that require lengthy dismantling of the vehicle to fit. The pro's don't fit cheap bars and electrics without being asked to do so by the customer. An excellent example of this is the BMW X5. A witter bar with electrics (including a by pass relay would work out at around the £350.00 mark fitted. The "genuine BMW bar (usually Westfalia) fitted at a BMW workshop would set you back £2,500. It would usually be farmed out to a local Tow bar company in any case. The local BMW, AUDI, Mercedes, Ford, Vauxhall and most other mainstream dealerships always sent their new vehicles to us for fitment, very rarely specifying genuine.

[CwazyWabbit]

With headlights (assuming normal bulbs not HID or LED). I thought the increased brightness was down to having less voltage drop?

Less voltage drop will increase the current flow.

Imagine each wire to the the head lamp was 1 ohm and the bulb was 10 ohms you would have 12 ohms resistance with a voltage drop of 1 volt across each lead and 10 volts across the bulb. This would lead to 1 amp flowing in the circuit (V=IxR). If you were now to put amazing cables_TM in instead that have no loss you would have a total circuit resistance of 10 ohms meaning all 12 volts would be dropped across the bulb with 1.2 amps flowing through the circuit.

caveat: Of course this is over simplified and I've made no attempt to make the figures remotely real world figures.

[Adam001]

Simple way to deal with electric systems, treat them with the respect they deserve, if you know what you are doing, go to town, if you don't, ask someone in the know nicely to help out.

Massively different cross sectional are and increased resistance according to a mate who's an electrical engineer. All I can tell you is that the NAS ones blink at the normal rate with sensible cables. I don't do electickery

Tell your mate to take his degree back...he got ripped off. However, to your average joe it is a perfectly viable conclusion (but not acceptable from a electrical engineer). Think of it as a straw vs a industrial storm drain.

Believe it or not, even professional Tow Bar fitting companies use Scotch Locks by the thousand in a year. The come back rate is very low.

When used on low current systems like side lights ( 21watts and below) they can be a very effective connection.

If fitted using ordinary pliers the pressure tends to bias to one side and can sometimes break the wire. Proper Scotch lock pliers close evenly and can't close any further than the thickness of the lock. From memory, we were ok to use them on all vehicles apart from Mercedes as far as warranty was concerned. Later vehicles with by-pass relays were connected in a slightly different way using a telephone type push together connector. but even this type of connection breaks into the insulation and grips the core in a fork, much the same as a scotch lock really.

Having said all that, I would only ever use them for tow bar electrics, never for accessories unless linking in the feed to a relay.

Scotch locks provide no protection from water ingress, copper oxidation and do not provide a full surface area clamping solution. Also once they have been closed...how do you actually know you have a sound connection?

They are, and always will be a lazy solution to a problem that can be done properly with decent equipment and parts.

[Anderzander]

An RAF chap who did the wiring in tornados told me (when discussing soldered wires) they worked on the principle of 0.1v dropped for every soldered joint.

I wonder what 15 scotchloks are ?