Winch Challenge Vehicle Classes

[geoffbeaumont]

Jon, I hate to wee on your chips but ETC with aggressive tyres and a locable center diff is bl**dy awesome. Slip in an LSD and it will leave any locker shuffling it's feet at the back of the que (is that how you spell que?)

I have had the pleasure of driving both Disco2 and Defender with ETC/CDL and Michelin MT's/Firestone SAT's over long off road distances through some pretty poohey conditions and even though it galls me to say it, Land Rover got it right. Even when the Defender was lumbered with a 1tonne trailer and given beanz through thirty odd clicks of Polish wet stuff over grippy clag, nary a twinge was heard from the drive train AND we could turn corners.

Anyway back to thread.

For once Will seems to be talking sense. I like the big points score thing that Shire do AND it is simple. Simple is good.

Even the ETC on my Range Rover, which is Land Rover and Wabcos' very first effort, rear axle only and with a standard open diff in the axle, makes a surprisingly big difference. I'm sure it's no substitute for a locker, and I've no idea how big an advantage it would be in a winch challenge, but it's certainly a significant aid when laning.

[geoffbeaumont]

i agree completely, a cage should be the very first thing to be fitted if doing any kind of motorsport IMHO. and not just a bit of scaffold pole welded together, a 2 1/2 tonne 90 or what ever they weigh can do some serious damage falling down a hill.

Nobody rolls intentionally so the excuse of not intending to roll is not a very clever one.

Hmm... Tricky one this.

Speaking as someone looking in from the outside (I know naff all about winch challenges - I've spectated at one), any requirement for significant mods to the vehicle is going to stop a lot of people ever dipping their toes in the water.

For example, I'd quite like to have a go at a winch challenge, but I'm not about to spend big money just to find out whether I enjoy it. As it is I'd have to fit a front winch as an absolute minimum - that I could live with as I intend fitting one for self rescue at some point anyway. It's a big outlay for me, but needn't be horrendous as long as I accept I'm not going to be competitive. Add a cage to that and there's no way I could justify the cost. My Range Rover also has to be a general purpose vehicle and sticking a cage on it would compromise it too much.

If I tried the sport and liked it then I'd probably start saving for the right equipment, possibly change the vehicle for something more appropriate or run something else to fulfil it's other duties, but that's a big commitment to make just to try something out.

On the other hand, I understand the safety issue. It would be nice to think I'd be smart enough to steer clear of punches I might roll on, but in the heat of competition? Probably not...

I suppose the only way round this would be to not only have classes but have restrictions on what the lowest class (specifically, uncaged vehicles) could attempt? The catch with this is that it puts a lot of responsibility on those laying out the course to decide what is safe for particular vehicles, rather than making the drivers responsible. From what little I've seen, that seems somewhat contrary to the spirit of the sport? Plus, of course, if you try hard enough you can roll your truck anywhere.

[pugwash]

geoff,

you can find out if you enjoy the sport just by turning up and watching - you'll get a real feel for it.

Then get yourself to a big event like 7 sisters where someone will have a spare seat that you can sit in- you will then find out if you would prefer to be driving!

you are much much much more likely to rolll the vehicle after a couple years experience when you start pushing the boundaries of the vehicles capabilities- Unless you have balls of steel and brains to match then you will back out first before the car does when you first get into the sport.

[FridgeFreezer]

I'm sort of with Geoff on this one, the MSA rules & regs can price people out very easily, both through the cost of buying things that meet their standard, and through the level of modification required to pass scrutineering.

For example: Not everyone has a cage, because it's a big outlay that is not easily DIY'd. Even those who HAVE cages, how many would pass MSA specs?

[TOR4x4]

I don't think the MSA creates rules just to cost us all money, it may even keep us safer. If you wanted to try comp safari for example would it be ok to say "i will only go slow until i get better, therefore i don't need a cage yet"?

[pugwash]

Must agree with Moglite. Seems classes really matter if you are a pot hunter. You don't really need that to have a good day or learn about your own talent or lack of it.

FB

whats wrong with pot hunting?

some events are just for fun (like 7S) but some are for winning like Scorpion challenge- why shouldn't some go out to win in the latter case?

[D9OSV]

You are almost all missing the whole point of Challenge...... (Awful name that means nothing)

Start at the basic's.....

What is it...?

You tell me....? (Should be intresting)

Andy (Hello Mate) Bang on.....But why..?

Cos you organise an adventure that appeals to many.......

The Problem with the AWDC and part of the reason i don't compete is cos i don't see the adventure in it

I don't like thrashing round sites that every other Tom,Dick, Harry etc, etc.. have mown to hell and back year after year.....

(Like to point out that Neil organises a mean punch competition, and this is not a critism againist him or the AWDC)

Thats why true challenge events are still adventures, new terrian ,different locations, fresh ideas.... Muddy truckers, Argyll forest challenge, Croatia,RFC, OBC, Bulldog, Three peaks but to name a few.

(Yes some reuse areas/sites but also always include vast areas of fresh undriven terrain)

This is why there is no generic rule book, this why certain events are fully booked and this why i think the Scorpion (Puts on tin hat) is breeding a new type of hardcore one event specialists that are beginning to set the pace in punch competition....(In fact so specialist is it becoming that whole new vehicle configurations are arising..?)

NOT that there is anything wrong with that, if thats what you want to do.

But please, before shouting about class this and class that, remember what the hell challenge is/was and what it should be

It is not about a ONE DAY PUNCH COMPETITION....

That is something entirely different....

A real challenge car should something that is not a one trick pony, It should be vehicle that is good at all things.

It should a vehicle that you can drive to Africa or to Croatia or to Sainsburys..........You get it..?

Thats why in AUS the challenge scene is splitting into different groups, those that love it as it is, and those that want more rocks and crawling.

The first is still dominated by vehicles that are daily drives, the other by specialist buggys.

If you want classes for this one day punch competition..? Then crack on, But for other style adventure events leave it to the indivual organiser and then YOU choose whether to enter or not..

Remember that most that speak so importantly on this subject have competed in next to F*ck all events and have little if any experience.

I suggest they get out there try it and then comment, and not just the a one day event.

I look forward to meeting some of you at my next adventure....

Where ever that might be....

Regards

Jim

[andylandy]

Well said jim

Being lucky enough to compete in events in Malaysia and Australia and knowing how to hold a car together for more than a day smashing it around trees and fitting new panels as a weekly occurrence

I choose not to enter scorpion challenge events and to be honest hunt the punch has never really had much interest to me ether

Nor aerial runways!!!! (join the TA if you fancy assault courses)

As Jim say’s adventure is the way forward for me the bulldog was a out standing event GPS, speed across open ground, and importantly work as a team and enjoy the event.

Muddy Truckers is another fine event though I have not competed there myself all you here is praise from a field of formidable competitors.

Argyle (well done bath tub and bryn) is the other event I will get around to doing same again a good entry and a strong event long may it stand.

Three peaks in Ireland you will not find better off roading although not a comp its very competitive in the teams and I would put the off roading up there with Malaysia.

CSW put on some great events and anyone who wants a good 1day/2day comp should try it

But as for a class system it don’t bother me I will happily compete against portal axles I have and I don’t see a advantage but big tyres is a different problem 36/37 inch tyres are fine and you can fit them under a standard 90 (for arguments sake) without big mods to body work

Personally pod has the right ideal a armoured TOM CAT its light it has a good set up and a good driver that knows his car he can also hit/rub trees with out re panelling his car

He can to scorpion events or the adventure type events and he doesn’t have silly damage every week

I just wanted to do scorpion type challenge events I would by a old modified trailer and stick some winches on it dumper tyres and watch the complaints roll in.

On a lighter note I think MOG light is fantastic and I can’t wait to watch it compete

Yes its great to win and great to support others in wining

But remember we do this for fun

Regards

Andy

[bathtub]

About time you up dated it please

[honitonhobbit]

Jim

I see where you are coming from but this is the UK.

I will never forget the events held in eastern europe back in the early '90's that went on for what seemed like forever, nor the Portugese and Spanish stuff that made me hark back to Camel selections (and the misery of failure). But we don't have 10,000hectares to play in. We cannot do what it was all about in the first place and try to emulate pre'97 Camel.

And as for taking a UK Challenge vehicle through Africa (easy to take it to, almost as easy as popping over to Croatia, Poland, Ukraine, Carpathia) it wouldn't and couldn't happen. Even the 'easy' West Coast route requires a safety margin of 700miles fuel and the East coast route through Eritrea is a like nothing else on earth...

Challenge in the UK should be like a development of RTV. Open to all budgets with a chance of a taste of glory for all comers. primarily one day events with a few two day jobbies to excite and socialise. Then the tiny, tiny minority of off roaders who compete would be a far greater number.

Those that find it to tame can go off and sample some higher level bigger events. How many of you have competed in Spain for example? Or tried out what Portugal, France and Ireland have to offer? All are cheapish to get to. And they have the space for the big events (and the prizes/spectators/marshals. recovery kit)

Think back to where you started, not what you have achieved.

"Remember that most that speak so importantly on this subject have competed in next to F*ck all events and have little if any experience.

I suggest they get out there try it and then comment, and not just the a one day event."

What if they are not as lucky as some? What if they are like Geoff and just want to have a go to see if they like it?

I was lucky once, no ties, big earner job, so I spent and had the pleasure of big time competition. No chance now,family, mortgage, low earner job. It doesn't mean that don't still yearn to go off and wup ass. I do and I could but I can't and I am one of a majority.

On another note, good to hear you have seen the funny sideof that LRM ad.

[Les Brock]

Good job I'm not a pot hunter .........not with Nick driving anyway

[honitonhobbit]

Good job I'm not a pot hunter .........not with Nick driving anyway

Pot Noodle maybe

[Tangoman]

Good job I'm not a pot hunter .........not with Nick driving anyway

Perhaps we will do better next year les if I make a mount for your zimmer-frame in the back instead of waiting for you to get it in the cab

[honitonhobbit]

Easy! You don't want to get a man of Des's age stressed...

[Les Brock]

Perhaps we will do better next year les if I make a mount for your zimmer-frame in the back instead of waiting for you to get it in the cab

That's fine make sure you get the battery changed on your hearing aid, as you don't seem to hear a word I say

[bathtub]

Its seems to me that its mainly the Land Rover owners that a crying & scared It seems all the things they want banned or put in another class are the bits that you cant bolt on a SCORPION 90 i.e

Portals or Tyres bigger than 36"

Funny how in the past vehicles like mine were just laughed at as we never finished or didnt know how the game was played & no one bitched about us

Then over the last year or so that a few including me have started to get our vehicles sorted & know how to drive & navigate etc its funny that all this debate has come around

I agree that if you build a 1 day play toy thats not road legal then put that in a class.

But if its taxed & MOT then it should be allowed to complete in Modified if it has 2 lockers etc & thats it modified is modified all this bollolcks about GPSs, waffles too long too big tyres, portals **** off get a life or just enter in a lower class

The events sort the trucks out themselves as Andy T said .

As far as im concerned COR can suck my balls its to soft & relys on clues etc to slow you down.

As to Muddy truckers great that event again would in my opinion stop trucks {maybe } like Moglite for 1 reason the distances & climate {**** MT in a open vehicle in March}for 3 days navigating for 8 hrs on open moorland only the bog site would Moglite have been an advantage all the rest you could do in a Scorpion 90 no probs as did most people.

Argyll again Scorpion 90s were a joke & small Suks just couldnt cope BIG ENGINNES TYRES & AXLES RULED {& i only dented a cage before you start} Moglite or such would of ruled if the driver has the rubbish & determination .

CSW good comps the handicap system worked well but it should work both ways & not too in favour of standard trucks if the site isnt harsh enough as for most site a standard truck could do most section without too much trouble then the handicap goes the wrong way {or the water is too deep}.

JBS events great but again there should be more points like at Slindon for sections that no-one else does & that equals it out.

I personally think the best way to handicap a vehicle is to score each section differently like PW at slindon does but there needs to be enough very hard sections & **** loads of easy

If you are a SCORPION 90 trophy hunter then go for quantity easy non-damaging punches.

If you are Super mofified then go for the hard punches that have more points but take longer etc ,but the quick easy punches with lots of distance / time between them are worth getting.

This to me levels the playing field & up to know worked BUT when the Super modfied trucks & drivers get fast trucks as well which is happening then it all Goes ****s up for SCORPION 90s .

I agree with Jim anyway there are only 2 or 3 real events in this country IMHO that are worth doing we will be mainly competing abroad next year as our truck know can ;

Run on the motorway at 70mph all day.

Hold enough fuel for 2 days .

Run bogs ,run sand ,run water ish.

Do road / track sections

All the navigation toys etc

Spare /back up vehicle

MOST OF ALL GOT A GOOD BITCH

Lastly what ive noticed with events the less BIG names & ones that rely on 4x4 for a living the better the atmosphere is & less bitching & cheating .Argyll was great this year everyone helped out at night repairing truck swapping fuel {yes Jim you too} etc & getting Mildly miffed.

Any COR event ive done there was a real bad atmosphere around unless you were part of the clicky club !

[D9OSV]

Quote: Bathtub

"Hold enough fuel for two days"

Funny i never saw the trailer....

Running.....

Again

Jim

Ps: Dave (Honiton Hobbit) Is the not the whole idea of challenge (Theres that word again) to repliacate some of what the Camel was about..??? So we can all live our little adventures....???? B)

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Will Warne Spake thus :

I don't enter events to win a pot but to have a good time

Erm........ Yeah ok Will Ta for straightening us all out on that point

And re the Mike Wolfe winch challenge the rules will be very simple

1st Class is ARC Rules - No exceptions

2nd Class is "Anything goes" up to and including 101 as the max "Size" (ie no Scammel Exploreres !)

If the entrants can't or don't like the rules in Class 1, then they can have class 2,

if they don't like class 2 then they have the option of Class 1

Otherwise they can "Bathtub Off" so to speak.

Rules for the sake of rules lead to more rules then special SRs and before you know it no-one really can explain them they are so complex, people then start to build a vehicle to JUST within the rules and then people lick off about it being "Outside the spirit of the rules" FFS..............

We have more than enough "Rules" in our day to day working lives - lets not have our hobby go the same way

Nige

[bathtub]

Quote: Bathtub

"Hold enough fuel for two days"

Funny i never saw the trailer....

Had the tank out on Sataurday .

The 2 tanks hold 150 litres between them however i could never seem to get more than 8 hrs out of them without getting fuel problems

So on Satarday we gas axed a big hole {i stood out side on the phone as it happens whilst Bryn did it} THE MUPPET that built it had welded the 10mm outlet pipe at 90 degrees & 2 " off the bottom & in the corner.

So we fitted 4 race jet ski pickup 1 in each corner welded it all back up BINGO it runs on 45 degree angles with 10 litres in it.

The annoying bit is that for the last 5 years ive been carrying 80 l of fuel i could never use

But hey know i recon i can do 20 hrs on 1 tank of normal challenge style or at least do the same time as a diesel truck between fill ups but sound alot more sexy

[bathtub]

Otherwise they can "Bathtub Off" so to speak

Here here

[pugwash]

Ps: Dave (Honiton Hobbit) Is the not the whole idea of challenge (Theres that word again) to repliacate some of what the Camel was about..??? So we can all live our little adventures....???? B)

The point of challenges is that they reflect whatever the participants want them to be. There is no "right" or "wrong" way of running a challenge.

There have been enough events around the country that people know which ones they like and will compete in those.

You can tell all the current challenge participants they are doing it wrong if you want, but i reckon they might just ignore you and you'll end up looking like a bit of a tit.

[honitonhobbit]

A third of a tonne of fuel for two days driving!?

The first part of the 'challenge' is to find enough fuel

Jim,

All off roading is in someway an emulation of Camel or what we think it stood for.

For me Camel represents days of winching in almost bog standard vehicles, with bog standard winches, ikkle tyres...

[JST]

my views from limited experience are

1. vehicles should each run in their own class (no of classes etc debatable as previously mentioned) with 1st/2nd/3rd in each class.

2. you cant have a std % knocked off a modified against std across the board. This is eluded to above but say 90% of the punches are achievable in a std vehicle and all of them in a modified truck. that means if the top std gets all 90% of the punches and top modified gets 100% of punches, but modified are screwed 80% of total score they can't win from the start.

3. i am contemplating the 3 classes for my next event:

a. std (eg 1 winch no lockers) (eg 1 aid)

b. mod1 (2 winches, or 1 winch and a locker) (2 aids)

c. mod2 anything else (3 + aids)

4. if your going to cheat to have some fun without damage and a weighted scoring system is used tell the organisers so as not to down grade the scores of those that did the punch correctly.

finally TC - if punches are too tight between the trees then go and find some other ones, there were cars leaving the site without body damage and Bampton is in a woods with lots of trees, i welcome coming to one of your events.

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Whilst not a particularly competitive person myself………….. I cannot see the point of extra classes of vehicle………….. standards & modified seem sense to me.

Driver experience, vehicle control, the ability to read the ground, the ability of the winchman, vehicle reliability, and an element of luck will always be the major factor in how well a team performs………. regardless of the level of vehicle modification.

Ian

[Andy]

having read all the comments im still of the opinion that there needs to be an extra class for the 'not quite as mad as the modified' boys. most laning trucks have enough mods to be in the modded class yet nowhere near enough mods to play with the modified boys with any hope of sucess.

without an area where your average entusiasts truck can compete with a chance of success then i think your losing a lot of people who'd want to try the sport. id love to try an event sometime if i could find a mug/fool/victim/biatch but i know my truck would have to go in the modded class & wouldnt stand a chance of a placing. i know its the fun of taking part etc but its much nicer to think you've got a chance to fluke a pot on your first go.