progress. ....really ?

[CwazyWabbit]

.......

I do like the improvements in safety of modern cars, but, I think a hell of a lot of modern drivers rely on these features rather than their ability - in my youth a serious fender bender in say a mini/escort/chevette generally caused lots of pain , but you thought twice about doing the same thing again. My nephew had a smash last year and because of the innumerable safety features walked away with the odd bruise, trouble is he also walked away thinking that a smash such as he'd just had was not a problem - that is, in my opinion a serious problem as he ain't scared of doing it again....

My opinion is that older vehicles are simply more rewarding to drive, they require more input and concentration and, overall make you a better driver.

Much harder to fall asleep whilst driving a mk1 escort than a modern ford ..... make things too easy and people get bored and lose concentration. Sure I read about some motorway that they had to add a few bends to so people had something to do whilst driving on it....

[elbekko]

Maybe it's time for a different point of view here

Personally, I don't mind the electronics. When done right, they'll make your life much easier. Getting a £15 fault code reader that interfaces with your phone will direct you straight to what the problem is.

The nice part of modern systems is that they're all CAN-bus, so no need to have a bazillion wires if things need to work together, nor does everything need to be handled by a single ECU (like the BeCM or BCU). If your seat heaters want to know if the engine is running, they just listen to the engine running signal on the CAN-bus.

The biggest problem with all these systems is that's it's all proprietary. Just imagine how much easier this all would be if all the CAN messages were standardised (and not just the protocol, as it is now).

I'm a software developer by trade, one of the projects I'm doing to my P38 is adding more electronics, and while this might make me look insane, I'm convinced it'll make life in the car nicer.

[tacr2man]

I dont see that the more modern vehicles are that much more reliable, i must have been very lucky with my vehicle choices , as the last unreliable vehicle I had was a Triumph tiger cub ! My 110 V8 was a year old when I bought it , The heater would roast you , it was relatively quiet , and was perfectly capable of cruising at illegal speeds, including holding a steady 80 on the autobahn. It has never leaked , including during tropical monsoon ! When the series vehicles were new , they were only relatively slightly behind the times, when the Range rover came out it was ahead of prettywell everything!

Landrover , have finally realised that the defender ,is no longer filling the demands of modern drivers, and have been fiddling at the edges with it for too long, they missed their chance a good few years back. We are in the situation with vehicles that they are almost one use disposable, as the second life , is almost russian roulette, as component costs quite often make them BER . You can already buy lowmileage relatively young vehicles for less than a decent pushbike ! The tools to fix (diagnostics) are expensive, and dissuade moving from one model to another . JMHO

[Tanuki]

I have no problems at all with electronically-controlled Diesels and intelligent autoboxes. I know that my 2001 TD5 Defender will at least have a good chance of starting when the phone goes at 02:30, it's minus-ten-centigrade outside and a client really needs me 100 miles away with the big Bateson flatbed. Who can possibly want a "clockwork" mechanical-Diesel when the intelligent-option is so much easier to live with?

Sadly when I bought said Defender I couldn't option it with a TDV6-and-autobox-and-electronic-traction-control - if that had been on the spec-sheet I'd have gone for it in a second. Computers can optimise traction a hundred times a second - I challenge any driver with only a centre-diff-lock to beat that.

My next LR acquisition is likely to be a D4 TDV6 Commercial, on a 3-year lease with option-to-purchase at the end. It's tax-efficient, can cruise quietly at UK-legal-limit-plus-30MPH, the loadspace passes the dogs-and-logs test, and it hauls 3500Kg. What's not to like?

[jason110]

I dont see that the more modern vehicles are that much more reliable, i must have been very lucky with my vehicle choices , as the last unreliable vehicle I had was a Triumph tiger cub ! My 110 V8 was a year old when I bought it , The heater would roast you , it was relatively quiet , and was perfectly capable of cruising at illegal speeds, including holding a steady 80 on the autobahn. It has never leaked , including during tropical monsoon ! When the series vehicles were new , they were only relatively slightly behind the times, when the Range rover came out it was ahead of prettywell everything!

Landrover , have finally realised that the defender ,is no longer filling the demands of modern drivers, and have been fiddling at the edges with it for too long, they missed their chance a good few years back. We are in the situation with vehicles that they are almost one use disposable, as the second life , is almost russian roulette, as component costs quite often make them BER . You can already buy lowmileage relatively young vehicles for less than a decent pushbike ! The tools to fix (diagnostics) are expensive, and dissuade moving from one model to another . JMHO

What I wanted to say, but I was still thinking about a MAN B&W 2 stroke.

[GW8IZR]

Im a young driver, i drive with mechanical sympathy and drive a range of vehicles from a 13/60 herald and series land rovers all the way up to D4's and the most modern big tractors, i dont spend most of my time on my side l:

The trouble with generalisation is they are generalisations :-)

First you probably wouldn't consider yourself a typical new driver ?

HGV tractors isolate the driver from the trailer and those that haven't experienced the full experience of an older vehicle simply press on round corners like their in a Ferrari..til they fall over. It happens more than you'd think.

And back in the sixties people fell asleep at the wheel and ended up dead, its not a new phenomenon- I think ABS and airbags have done more for road safety than the new tougher driver training standards.

I don't know your driving standard , please don't be offended by my post, it was a one or two liner in part of a fairly light hearted discussion.

As I've got older I've realised the last million miles have taught me that I probably wasn't as good as a young driver as I thought I was :-)

Today I drive much slower and defensively as I know my own limitations more and I've observed some shocking examples of other people's incompetence so I hang back and try to give everyone a better chance. For every mistake I make and realise I wonder how many escaping defects there are.

[Nigelw]

I think it our Les Brock that described a D4 as "tomorrows white goods", whilst it is and will be a lovelly vehicle to drive it is enormously complicated and expensive to repair when it does go wrong.

I lost faith in new cars a long time ago, I am only mid 30s and am relatively tech savvy, not scared of electronics at all, not scared of spending money on genuine parts to keep them running either, but todays design is no longer about safety, it is no longer about comfort inside a vehicle, it is about selling gimmicks and gadgets as the next must have, efficiency is better I grant you but not by much in real world tests not the stupid brochures figures.

Anyone know how much it would cost for the led plasma screen thing in a 2014 RRS? I don't but if it went blank then it would be a little bit more than interesting not knowing how fast you were going or how much fuel was in the tank or the next track on the miley cirus album, just not interested in it at all.

Most likely I will modernize my daily driver to be ultra efficient when times change but as for my hobby car, it will be mechanical and do as I tell it not as it thinks.

[CwazyWabbit]

Well if the Lib Dems get in over here they said they'd get rid of all petrol and diesel cars by 2040 ..... So I guess the current crop of vehicles won't have to last anywhere near as long as a Series one

[bill van snorkle]

Maybe it's time for a different point of view here

Personally, I don't mind the electronics. When done right, they'll make your life much easier. Getting a £15 fault code reader that interfaces with your phone will direct you straight to what the problem is.

The nice part of modern systems is that they're all CAN-bus, so no need to have a bazillion wires if things need to work together, nor does everything need to be handled by a single ECU (like the BeCM or BCU). If your seat heaters want to know if the engine is running, they just listen to the engine running signal on the CAN-bus.

The biggest problem with all these systems is that's it's all proprietary. Just imagine how much easier this all would be if all the CAN messages were standardised (and not just the protocol, as it is now).

I'm a software developer by trade, one of the projects I'm doing to my P38 is adding more electronics, and while this might make me look insane, I'm convinced it'll make life in the car nicer.

Could you do me a favour and re type your post in pre computer age 'English' ?

[elbekko]

Let's see if I can put this in an analogy you can understand...

Think about a gearbox. Every gearbox is about the same design, bunch of gears driven by an input shaft, driving an output shaft, selected by some sort of selector fork.

But there are also tons of differences, bellhousing bolt pattern, output bolt pattern, spline count on input and output shafts, ...

This is very comparable to the CAN-bus system used in modern vehicles. The standardised protocol describes how to send a message (basic workings of your gearbox), but not what's in the message (spline count of your in- and output shaft).

Now, wouldn't your life be much easier if all that was standardised and every gearbox could be used in place of another?

[Snagger]

I don't think new models are more economical or reliable. My 109's and RRC's Tdis start instantly, even in sub zero conditions without using the glow plugs, while my wife's TDCI needs a couple of seconds of cranking, and I have observed the same of many other new diesels. My RR and 109 also do better mpg than the TDCI Defender, even though the Defender is lighter and aerodynamically much cleaner than the 109.

My 109's only reliability issues in the last 8 years (since I rebuilt it) have been a failed clutch hose and leaking cylinders because I had reused the originals and the gear box because I overstressed a unit not designed for the engine and diff combination installed. The TDCI has needed the front wings and doors realigning, the turbo heat shield refitting, the front left wing rewiring, the high level brake light and horns replacing and the rear diff has a high spot on the crown wheel, all at two years old (and probably bad from the factory), and the body panels are pathetically flimsy unlike the sturdy earlier vehicle.

[CwazyWabbit]

In fairness Nick if you fitted the emissions control items of a TDCI to an old tdi engine it would be less efficient than a TDCI and certainly less powerful.

[GW8IZR]

I wonder if the pattern part market will be a strong for newer vehicles when they become cheap enough to own as toys?

How many could afford to run a D1 / TDI anything if we had to buy dealer parts.

Assuming the main concern is electronic unit failures, even when diagnosed the replacement electronic unit might be more than the cost of a (chassis/Carb/axle) for example we pay 1300 quid for a galv chassis cos its a big lump of a thing but baulk at 1200 quid for a compressor cos

its little and anoying

Electronic diagnostics is just another skill, the systems I work on are far more complex but I'd prefer not to have to do that for this hobby. There is something satisfying about working on simple older technology- a bit like the oily cap men with their small engines at the shows, they extract endless pleasure from something that's fairly pointless to everyone but them. My 90 is about the same.... cost me more than a year and ********* thousands. I could have bought an almost new 90 :-)

Its not all bad though, a friend had a BMW with air suspension, the plastic compressor housing broke and the dealer wanted £1250 quid for a new one. That became a mechanical challenge involving milling the end off and making a new end cap. Cost a few hours and virtually zero material cost. So maybe the minority but fixing the modules and bits should be the approach- the skill becomes reverse engineering the broken bit?

[CwazyWabbit]

....Its not all bad though, a friend had a BMW with air suspension, the plastic compressor housing broke and the dealer wanted £1250 quid for a new one. That became a mechanical challenge involving milling the end off and making a new end cap. Cost a few hours and virtually zero material cost. So maybe the minority but fixing the modules and bits should be the approach- the skill becomes reverse engineering the broken bit?

It only takes one person to reverse engineer the module, once the info is out then the hard work is done. With the amount of cheap computers like RaspberryPi, BeagleBoneBlack, etc or less powerful kit like Arduinos you could probably replace most things.

[GW8IZR]

It only takes one person to reverse engineer the module, once the info is out then the hard work is done. With the amount of cheap computers like RaspberryPi, BeagleBoneBlack, etc or less powerful kit like Arduinos you could probably replace most things.

Absolutely right but the desire has to be there. You could probably fool a BECM into thinking it was connected to anything or even make a a really cut down bog standard BECM in a PIC.

[CwazyWabbit]

Maybe when the time comes this site would be a good place to make it happen. We could have a new sub forum under tools and fabrication where code and designs could be shared and worked on.

I was impressed by the speed we got results and number of people who helped when we took apart the TD5 speedometer to try and understand how it worked.

[elbekko]

It only takes one person to reverse engineer the module, once the info is out then the hard work is done. With the amount of cheap computers like RaspberryPi, BeagleBoneBlack, etc or less powerful kit like Arduinos you could probably replace most things.

Exactly! And also exactly what I'm doing with my P38 and the CD changer (read: Raspberry Pi).

Now if only I could be arsed to get on with it...

[CwazyWabbit]

Exactly! And also exactly what I'm doing with my P38 and the CD changer (read: Raspberry Pi).

Now if only I could be arsed to get on with it...

You should start a thread on it, you may get some help

[elbekko]

I have/had a thread on it on RR.net, don't visit that cesspool of a forum anymore... I'll start one here when I get around to it. Most of the project is finished, just writing out some final interfacing with MPD, all the IBus stuff is done except for showing text on the radio (which I'm starting to think can't be done)

[Tanuki]

Philosophically, I'm 101% in favour of embracing the modern stuff like electronic/common-rail Diesel control, intelligent automatic-transmissions, ABS/ETC, air-suspension and suchlike.

If you're not-yet-enlightened - try driving a current-production Discovery. It launches from a standstill to 60MPH in sports-car-style even when hauling a trailer, cruises quietly at 70-80MPH, takes bends at speeds which would put a leaf-sprung 'Series'-LR into the nearest hedge, and when it goes wrong you hook a laptop to it and it tells you exactly why it's feeling unwell rather than having you randomly throw money at swapping parts in the vain hope of solving the issue.

And all while doing 30+ MPG and only needing to be serviced every 15,000 miles. What's not to like?

[mmgemini]

Philosophically, I'm 101% in favour of embracing the modern stuff like electronic/common-rail Diesel control, intelligent automatic-transmissions, ABS/ETC, air-suspension and suchlike.

If you're not-yet-enlightened - try driving a current-production Discovery. It launches from a standstill to 60MPH in sports-car-style even when hauling a trailer, cruises quietly at 70-80MPH, takes bends at speeds which would put a leaf-sprung 'Series'-LR into the nearest hedge, and when it goes wrong you hook a laptop to it and it tells you exactly why it's feeling unwell rather than having you randomly throw money at swapping parts in the vain hope of solving the issue.

And all while doing 30+ MPG and only needing to be serviced every 15,000 miles. What's not to like?

Do you know in 1954 I heard this same arguement over 1954 cars against the pre-war cars....

Yes I know. I've been in a D3,

I can't afford one.

I wonder if I'd ever get my head round the electronics

Then of course the D3/ 4 isn't a car, it's a lounge on wheels

[dailysleaze]

Funny, there weren't too many fatal accidents in the days when there were only Series LandRovers. Drivers didn't expect them to stop or handle well, so drove within the vehicles limits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reported_Road_Casualties_Great_Britain

Safety has improved a vast amount, even though the number of road users has increased also. I think modern vehicles are amazing. Personally, I just don't want one. If I didn't own a Defender then I wouldn't own a car. I had a go in a Discovery 4 on LR experience. It was an awesome gadget, but it took the fun out of offroading. Not for me.

After a house, a car is probably your most expensive asset. It's also your most random expense generator. My GF's 2005 Polo seems modern to me, but there isn't a Haynes manual for it, all the forums only have info on fitting spoilers and it's not easy to find out what the part numbers are. It probably has some things that can only be tackled with proprietary tools or relatively simple jobs require a full blown workshop to accomplish, therefore it bewilders me. She's had a radiator fan seize (£200) and I couldn't find the correct replacement part anywhere or how the thing detached from the radiator. She also had a quote for £150 for brake pads (which I did manage) Her previous car's power steering failed at £600. This is a pain for anyone.

As someone with a technical job who liaises with non-technical people, it's difficult to know when people are taking you for a ride, and with complex vehicles you can get shafted by garages as they're your only option. The Defender is a buffer against being ripped off, because I know what's involved to fix something: I know exactly how much the parts are, how long it should take and what the proper procedure is because the information is readily available and it was designed to be fixed by the end user. That appeals.

I also like the driving experience of having to think more than the car is. I could never drive an automatic.

[CwazyWabbit]

I have/had a thread on it on RR.net, don't visit that cesspool of a forum anymore... I'll start one here when I get around to it. Most of the project is finished, just writing out some final interfacing with MPD, all the IBus stuff is done except for showing text on the radio (which I'm starting to think can't be done)

Just read your thread, great work so far Must've felt good to get it working.

[elbekko]

Just read your thread, great work so far Must've felt good to get it working.

Thanks Yeah, it did, but lately I just haven't been able to focus on it. Realistically, it just needs 1-2 hours of undivided attention, but yeah...

I'll start a thread on it one of these days.

[smallfry]

Could you do me a favour and re type your post in pre computer age 'English' ?

Absolutely right but the desire has to be there. You could probably fool a BECM into thinking it was connected to anything or even make a a really cut down bog standard BECM in a PIC.

I can see where Mr Van Snorkle is coming from.................All these acronyms, its all gobbledygook to me too. I cant even understand basic stuff, let alone anything complicated. If anyone tries to teach anything they just rush on through assuming that everyone knows what they are talking about. Rather like maths at school, where you didnt understand something and got left behind because you did not have a good grasp of the basics, and so lost interest.

Personally, while all these aids like traction control, radar braking and the like are no doubt good for an easy and more comfortable driving experience, what happens when they fail ? As surely they must as nothing lasts for ever, and the driver finds they are not quite as good as they thought................The best analagy I can give is what used to happen at school during woodwork classes. You were not allowed to use the morticing maching UNTIL you could do it by hand, and was not allowed to use a calculator in maths until you could do mental arithmatic............And then theres the expense, and even a diagnostic facility does not guarantee that the faulty electronic gizmo can be found easily, as many people will testify having still been charged for said items which have NOT fixed the fault.