progress. ....really ?

[Bowie69]

Yeah, why make everything easy and accessible for everyone.

Oh sorry, was that sarcasm?

[CwazyWabbit]

BECM = Body Electronic Control Module (or something similar)

A PIC is basically a little computer on a chip, it does actually stand for something but the expanded name doesn't reveal a lot more about it so they are nearly always just called PICs

Any electronic gizmos added to vehicles should be designed so that when they fail they fail safe, so if your traction control fails you should still be able to drive, if ABS fails you should still have brakes etc.... Whether you are competent enough to drive a vehicle once these devices have failed is another matter.

Even without On Board Diagnostics plenty of garages have replaced the wrong parts, that's not really the fault of the diagnostics kit but as much a fault of the training and information available to the mechanic.

[GW8IZR]

I can see where Mr Van Snorkle is coming from.................All these acronyms, its all gobbledygook to me too. I cant even understand basic stuff, let alone anything complicated. If anyone tries to teach anything they just rush on through assuming that everyone knows what they are talking about. Rather like maths at school, where you didnt understand something and got left behind because you did not have a good grasp of the basics, and so lost interest.

Acronyms, yes there are going to be a few new ones to pick up but I'd be willing to bet you know what ABS means?

BeCM is Body Electrical Control Module and a PIC is a little microcontroller, a simple single chip computer that has lots of input connectors and output connectors. It can be used to read things like switches, sensors such as speed transducers, rev counter inputs, accelerator position etc. and give you outputs to turn relays on and off or meter fuel etc. The software inside can be programmed to make decisions like looking at the ambient light and turn the headlights on. They aren't huge and don't have masses of programming space .. but they cost about 50p and you can use ten of them if it suits.

What I'm saying is if there is a desire to learn this its not hard and the info is all out there on the web.

Some time ago there was a thread about changing a Defender relay for delay wipe type. They were costing about 15 quid which for a very simple circuit seemed expensive. Mine using a PIC and a little VMOS relay cost me about 2 quid and ten minutes programming. It took longer to fit than build. Now that's a simple project, from that building block of a controller reading a couple of switches and controlling as couple of outputs ( washer and wiper )you can keep building and building in complexity til eventually you have a full blown BeCM. You may chose a more powerful programmer or computer if you like, but the principle is the same.

And then theres the expense, and even a diagnostic facility does not guarantee that the faulty electronic gizmo can be found easily, as many people will testify having still been charged for said items which have NOT fixed the fault.

Sad to say that's often the people using the diagnostic tools..

Personally I like my TDI 'cos it only needs 12V to make it run :-)

[Bowie69]

Steam powered doesn't even need that.

[CwazyWabbit]

Steam powered doesn't even need that.

A simple mod and parking on a hill results is tdi that doesn't either

[=jon=]

This is a pretty interesting thread actually, and is reasonably timely as I'm half heartedly shopping for a new car at the moment as I need something more economical. If you look at modern diesels, turbos seem almost consumable, injectors don't seem to last due to the crazy rail pressures, and googling "DPF Failure" is almost scary enough to give you palpitations...

I would absolutely love a D3 - however all of the horror stories of unreliability and unnecessary complexity really put me off!

[Soren Frimodt]

If one were to make this really basic, and look at the basic foundation of things going defect, this is how it looks:

No or at best very few mechanical parts have been removed or replaced by electronics on a modern engine / car

Lots of mechanical parts have been added

Lots of electronics have been added

More parts are made from plastic

More parts are being constructed in such a way that recycling is much easier, to a point where it has a higher priority than longevity

That is the basic truth. So unless we have gotten like a 1000% better at engineering these parts for longevity than a couple of centuries ago, basic mathematics says it's no good in the long run.

Am I wrong in any of this?

[discomikey]

The trouble with generalisation is they are generalisations :-)

First you probably wouldn't consider yourself a typical new driver ?

HGV tractors isolate the driver from the trailer and those that haven't experienced the full experience of an older vehicle simply press on round corners like their in a Ferrari..til they fall over. It happens more than you'd think.

And back in the sixties people fell asleep at the wheel and ended up dead, its not a new phenomenon- I think ABS and airbags have done more for road safety than the new tougher driver training standards.

I don't know your driving standard , please don't be offended by my post, it was a one or two liner in part of a fairly light hearted discussion.

As I've got older I've realised the last million miles have taught me that I probably wasn't as good as a young driver as I thought I was :-)

Today I drive much slower and defensively as I know my own limitations more and I've observed some shocking examples of other people's incompetence so I hang back and try to give everyone a better chance. For every mistake I make and realise I wonder how many escaping defects there are.

not offended by you as such, i just dont like being put in that category and as far as it goes i often still am put in that category, unbeknown to the other person that i could probably back a trailer in circles around them and i pride myself in knowing what to do when other drivers have gotten me into a situation, i.e. not being a berk and just anchoring up like 90% of all aged drivers.

i also believe that driving a rear wheel drive series with a fair amount of power and a "proper" transmission, made me a better driver and gave me a proper understanding of RWD dynamics. i bet there arent a lot of 17 -24yr olds that have that understanding. hell, i have 4 gearlevers to play with, 2 of them simultaneously, your average mondeo doesent

[mmgemini]

Just don't break a drive shaft on a D3 and expect it to move on the other three wheels. Well from my information it well for about ten feet.

[bill van snorkle]

If one were to make this really basic, and look at the basic foundation of things going defect, this is how it looks:

No or at best very few mechanical parts have been removed or replaced by electronics on a modern engine / car

Lots of mechanical parts have been added

Lots of electronics have been added

More parts are made from plastic

More parts are being constructed in such a way that recycling is much easier, to a point where it has a higher priority than longevity

That is the basic truth. So unless we have gotten like a 1000% better at engineering these parts for longevity than a couple of centuries ago, basic mathematics says it's no good in the long run.

Am I wrong in any of this?

A fair example of the above is electronic traction control. I read recently that the life of the Rover differential bevel gears, when the vehicle is used in conditions where traction control has to earn its keep, is between one and two hours. The life of a mechanical difflock of proper design is indefinite.

[FridgeFreezer]

It's one thing to prefer older vehicles that are simpler, or have more character, or whatever, but arguing that modern vehicles aren't safer, more reliable, more efficient, is just factually wrong.

Go read some car magazines from the 1970's or '80s, stuff that was 3 years old had rust holes you could put your fist through, engines would be scrap at 50,000 miles and you'd probably stand a better chance crashing a smart car than a full-size family saloon from that era. Yes cars were simpler, so are slide rules compared to iPads, but people have grumbled about every technological advance on cars ever. All the carp being talked about the Evoque / Disco 3/4 etc. was said about Range Rovers & Discoverys etc. - fuel injection, electric windows, disc brakes, turbos, ABS... you name it, it's started off as scary voodoo and 5-10 years down the line people have it sussed and it's boring and there's some new boogeyman like catalytic converters or airbags or air suspension.

Whatever it is, by the time Ford are fitting it to Mondeos it's no longer either unreliable or expensive or too complicated or they just wouldn't do it.

[bill van snorkle]

It's one thing to prefer older vehicles that are simpler, or have more character, or whatever, but arguing that modern vehicles aren't safer, more reliable, more efficient, is just factually wrong.

Go read some car magazines from the 1970's or '80s, stuff that was 3 years old had rust holes you could put your fist through, engines would be scrap at 50,000 miles .

All the above would indeed apply to many British built vehicles, but it didn't have to be that way. The Japanese proved way back in the 1960's that it was easy to build small, reliable and relatively powerful engines in solid, dependable vehicles that would run for hundreds of thousands kilometres, and in many cases used British engines (Austin, Bedford etc) to base their designs on.

[tacr2man]

Not all vehicles from the past were duds, from any point of view , including efficiency . 1968 mini 1000, 45mpg , 19831.3 hle 60mpg , , both from personal experience. Ital 1.7 200,000 miles frequently ( we used them for taxi work , super reliability) . MGB GT , very strong bodyshell , recovered a few crashed ones, and so on, and multiple Land rover products , with only one lemon ( a range rover , put some of that was down to previous poor servicing . There were a few id rather forget , Bedford dormobile diesel cold weather starting !! , triumph herald , couldnt get the head off ! a vauxhall that the body disolved . cars have increased performance , but travel has got slower ! Overall there is more accident survivability in modern cars , and more gizmos to stop the driver getting into bad situations , but part result is that drivers have generally less of a clue as to what to do when things happen, eg snow driving requires a bit more than pressing a button with a snowflake on it JMHO

[Sheffield]

It seems to me that the factor that will be a problem with modern cars as they get older is the cost of replacement parts. We are already seeing cars in reasonably good condition going to the scrap because the airbags have gone off, and the cost of replacing the airbags is more than the car is worth, especially if the insurance is involved. I think people will learn to deal with the the technology, but it is the cost of the complicated parts that will be the problem. A Discovery 1 is not only simple to keep on the road, but more important, the parts it requires are not too costly. As an example, take the repair of rust problems on a Discovery. Where the owner has the skill and interest to do the welding the vehicle can be repaired, but if some one else has to be paid to do it the vehicle is scrapped because of the costs.

Also, a lot of parts in moden cars can only be obtained from the manufacturer. When he will nolonger supply that will be the end of it.

[Maverik]

"Since the time of the 1000-mile adventure through Sumatra, British Layland has provided the vehicles for the Camel Trophies. Range Rovers for Sumatra and Papua-NewGuinea, in Zaire and in the second part of the Trophy '84 along the Trans-Amazonica Land Rovers that were the best known in Asia, Latin America and Africa. In the 30 years of expereince that Layland had had, experts from all over the world have come to make the Land Rover a car that the people in rugged areas of the earth can depend on." - Thorer - Blumenberg:- 1000 miles of adventure

[FridgeFreezer]

We are already seeing cars in reasonably good condition going to the scrap because the airbags have gone off, and the cost of replacing the airbags is more than the car is worth

Relatively speaking though, those cars are much cheaper than they were 20 years ago - it's not that the parts are insanely expensive, it's that cars are insanely cheap now. Go to poorer countries and they'll make anything run because it's worth the effort to work it out. It's not hard to bypass the airbag circuit, and you can re-program the ECU to not care, it's just that obviously an insurance company is not going to do that, hence no market for it on shiny new cars on the UK roads, hence no-one's bothered. However, at some point someone will bother as those cars filter down the used market. And, thanks to the internet, as soon as some kid with a laptop in Bulgaria works out how to do it, he can sell it globally on eBay for a few quid.

When on-board diagnostics first came out the computer kit was dealer-only multi-thousands-of-pounds and all this "you'll never be able to fix that" stuff went on. Now you can buy a bluetooth dongle for a fiver and diagnose your car on your iPhone.

[ToyRoverlander]

"Since the time of the 1000-mile adventure through Sumatra, British Layland has provided the vehicles for the Camel Trophies. Range Rovers for Sumatra and Papua-NewGuinea, in Zaire and in the second part of the Trophy '84 along the Trans-Amazonica Land Rovers that were the best known in Asia, Latin America and Africa. In the 30 years of expereince that Layland had had, experts from all over the world have come to make the Land Rover a car that the people in rugged areas of the earth can depend on." - Thorer - Blumenberg:- 1000 miles of adventure

And yet Toyota took over with the more reliable LandCruiser.

[tacr2man]

And yet Toyota took over with the more reliable LandCruiser.

No landrover dropped the ball , waiting times for landrovers were insane , so people bought something else, and they also failed to move with the times , as they could sell everything that they could make , cash was siphoned off to support other parts of the current owners operation . Land cruisers fail as well , dont believe the spin FMHE

[mmgemini]

Land cruisers fail as well , dont believe the spin FMHE

Not just the Cruzer but the Hi-Lux as well.

As for driving a Cruzer. A series is more comfortable.

[Snagger]

It's one thing to prefer older vehicles that are simpler, or have more character, or whatever, but arguing that modern vehicles aren't safer, more reliable, more efficient, is just factually wrong.

Go read some car magazines from the 1970's or '80s, stuff that was 3 years old had rust holes you could put your fist through, engines would be scrap at 50,000 miles and you'd probably stand a better chance crashing a smart car than a full-size family saloon from that era. Yes cars were simpler, so are slide rules compared to iPads, but people have grumbled about every technological advance on cars ever. All the carp being talked about the Evoque / Disco 3/4 etc. was said about Range Rovers & Discoverys etc. - fuel injection, electric windows, disc brakes, turbos, ABS... you name it, it's started off as scary voodoo and 5-10 years down the line people have it sussed and it's boring and there's some new boogeyman like catalytic converters or airbags or air suspension.

Whatever it is, by the time Ford are fitting it to Mondeos it's no longer either unreliable or expensive or too complicated or they just wouldn't do it.

It's not as simple as that. It's undeniable that a new car off the assembly line is safer than an old one, with all the modern safety features they have. But after five years and 60,000 miles it's debatable. Because new cars are so complex and parts and labour comparatively expensive, many owners fail to maintain them properly. It's not just the hightech items like ABS and EAS that get driven on the fritz, but tyres on vehicles with odd sizes or low profile tyres. Even something as cheap and low tech as light bulbs are now routinely ignored because fitting them has become so difficult on most modern cars. That's before you even consider driver complacency while driving because of their confidence in the safety features and benign handling. Toyota would have a hard time saying their current models have been symbols of reliability or safety.

Reliability and safety rely as much on ease and cost of maintenance as they do original design features on high mileage vehicles, and that is simply not being designed in anymore.

[discomikey]

It's not as simple as that. It's undeniable that a new car off the assembly line is safer than an old one, with all the modern safety features they have. But after five years and 60,000 miles it's debatable. Because new cars are so complex and parts and labour comparatively expensive, many owners fail to maintain them properly. It's not just the hightech items like ABS and EAS that get driven on the fritz, but tyres on vehicles with odd sizes or low profile tyres. Even something as cheap and low tech as light bulbs are now routinely ignored because fitting them has become so difficult on most modern cars. That's before you even consider driver complacency while driving because of their confidence in the safety features and benign handling. Toyota would have a hard time saying their current models have been symbols of reliability or safety.

Reliability and safety rely as much on ease and cost of maintenance as they do original design features on high mileage vehicles, and that is simply not being designed in anymore.

an interesting point.. a while ago on my chevy i managed to blag free fitting for my dip beam bulbs at my local halfords. They told me that htey arent supposed to do this particular model as it is too hard??

its a pair of lightbulbs FFS. anyway he did it. and 2 hrs later i had lights. Yes 2 HRS!

this weekend i had to replace one as it had blown and it took me a grand total of 3 mins. I think mindset had a lot to do with it, i would also assume that this halfords bloke (younger than me) would probably represent the technical skill of the vast majority of new car drivers. i think he made a meal of it because he was told it was too hard, and therefore wasnt taking a "simple approach"

If left to do it as normal i would suspect it wouldnt have taken half an hour

[Sheffield]

I understood it was an EU requirement that lamps could be changed without tools.

Many drivers of older cars would not think of taking it to a garage for maintenance. It would cost more than the car is worth in some cases. Also people are so reliant on their cars that they are not prepared to do without them. They just rely on the MOT to tell them if any thing is required. I imagine some older members will remember the state of some of the older cars on the road before the introduction of the MOT.

[Tanuki]

I understood it was an EU requirement that lamps could be changed without tools.

I don't think so - in the case of certain current-production Renaults you need to remove most of the front of the car to change a headlamp bulb - and then you need to perform a beam-realignment according to the book.

Easy-to-remove headlights are a current problem for Disco and RR owners - they're being stolen and will cost you between £500 and £1000 to replace!

[Snagger]

If they stopped making very complex, blingy light packs, then they wouldn't be stolen - it was never a problem on Defenders, Discoverys up to the 2004 facelift or RRC and P38. But even with modern clusters, it doesn't have to be impossible to fit bulbs without tools if the designers give the slightest thought to maintenance. The same can be said of other regular service parts like filters, belts, clutch and brake discs and so on. Look at the bad design of RRC/Defender hubs and discs, or how disastrous the D3 and 4 clutches and belts are - by the time they're 10 years old, people will scrap them rather than renew a clutch.

[Lewis]

The clutches aren't that big a deal - when I worked at Gaydon and we were doing clutch development work on D3 we were getting the clutches out that quick they were too hot to touch

D3 is nearly ten years old and yet I don't see hundreds of them on eBay for pence because the clutches are slipping