To scrap or not to scrap

[rhrwilliams]

Hi all. I was wondering if anyone would care to offer me some advice. 

I have a 1993/4 Defender 200 tdi. I don't use it often, but I do NEED a 4X4 that can be legally driven on the road. It mostly gets used on a farm though. 

It is however registered as a D reg built 1986. I have had the land rover for years and was in blissful ignorance about its history..... I took it to a specialist Land Rover place a few months ago as it failed its MOT and the guy there said its a ringer as its not a 1986 model. I investigated this further and as it appears the chassis number has been ground off thus being reasonable I think it is def a ringer / clone and not just had an engine swap as I thought !

The chassis is rotten on the rear crossmember and crossmember attachments and it has already had a replacement rear cross member with extensions. There is one rotten out-rigger also . Other than the aforementioned the vehicle is pretty tidy and has MORE than earned its money for me. It owes me nothing. I paid nothing for it (I bought it years ago when defenders were cheap!)

I would like some un-biast advise on what to do with it. I have been offered £2500 for it by someone locally to me who knew it sat about in a barn not doing much, where I was completely honest with them and told them I thought it was nicked etc, and this was ok for them as they were taking it to bits to convert into a monster off roader. 

I am on a budget and only have maximum £2k to spend really on fixing / buying new. 

So the question; 

Ho much do you think it would cost and is it feasible to weld it up, get it MOT'd and I still use it on the farm and basically keep it going on a budget ? Chassis looks not ideal to me and especially as ill be using it to tow things. I don't know much about welding up land rovers so advice welcome. 

Do I get a chassis swap on it, and the issue of it being cloned hopefully disappears with the old chassis or am i pouring money down the drain ?  

Do I bit the blokes hand off for £2500 and put the £2k towards this and try to buy another one , although £4.5k does not seem to get you much now a days. 

If you got this far - thanks for reading and any help you can give. 

Richard 

 

 

 

 

[Mudmonkey]

Looks like a genuine 200tdi, intake on passenger side, looks to be original defender decal on the back so it's real age would be between 1990 and 1994.

You may get into trouble later down the line if you sell it on in the knowledge that it's dodgy? 

[ballcock]

What a dilema, Do you know who you bought it off, are they the previous keeper on the V5? As you are now aware of it's history if you sell it on you are as guilty as the person who sold it to you. You may want to get some legal advice as to where you stand. As knowingly being in recent of stolen property is a little more than unwittingly buying a ringer. Sorry if it sounds harsh but having vehicles stolen in the past I have little time for people who deal in them.

[rhrwilliams]

Thanks for the replies.

To be clear, I am not proposing to sell it and nor would I as a road going vehicle. Someone locally who wants to chop it into a off roader and use the engine etc has offered the money and I have told them the history of it and made it completely clear its for parts etc which they are happy with. They also approached me about it knowing its history, not me trying to sell it to them. 

I have the original owners details but I only paid £1500 for it a long time ago and it is worth more to me being used on the farm than getting £1500 back. Thus the dilemma. 

[western]

Does it have the VIN plate on top of the brake pedal/servo assembly ?

that will give the original VIN, 

as said it looks like a genuine 90 station wagon 

[UdderlyOffroad]

20 hours ago, rhrwilliams said:

It is however registered as a D reg built 1986. I have had the land rover for years and was in blissful ignorance about its history..... I took it to a specialist Land Rover place a few months ago as it failed its MOT and the guy there said its a ringer as its not a 1986 model. I investigated this further and as it appears the chassis number has been ground off thus being reasonable I think it is def a ringer / clone and not just had an engine swap as I thought !

 

6 hours ago, ballcock said:

What a dilema, Do you know who you bought it off, are they the previous keeper on the V5? As you are now aware of it's history if you sell it on you are as guilty as the person who sold it to you. You may want to get some legal advice as to where you stand. As knowingly being in recent of stolen property is a little more than unwittingly buying a ringer. Sorry if it sounds harsh but having vehicles stolen in the past I have little time for people who deal in them.

 

Slow down people, for all we know somebody legally owned both vehicles and made one 'good' one out of 2 vehicles.  Used to happen a lot, less common now. Especially with Defenders and Minis, before prices skyrocketed.

Personally, you've had it this long, I'd get the galv chassis ordered and swap it.  Do as Western says, make sure the VIN plate on the brake servo (if it's still there) matches the log book, and stamp up the new chassis with that number.

[rhrwilliams]

The plate on the servo is there and matches the log book.

One thing that is odd is the front axel appears to be quite old. I don't know much about this as you can probably tell. But it has leather gators on it which my old series had ! Any idea how to tell how old axels are ? The series number is long gone, I have tried scraping off to find serial but its just not there. 

Are there any other give aways as to investigating its age and whether it has some older parts on it ? 

Any ideas of cost of getting it welded / plated up for a MOT ?

Thanks

Richard 

[Arjan]

Leather gaiter can mean anything - usu fitted after the vehicle was bought.

There is a special liquid that you can try to make the VIN no appear once applied.

X-ray wil also show the number outline but I've always been led to believe in the UK that VIN plate is more important than the chassisno that should be stamped in the chassis behind the right front wheel...

 

[western]

Axle number can be very difficult to find/read, stamped chassis number behind right front wheel on side of jacking point again can be hard to find after lots of years.

extract from defender workshop manual on location for the axle serial numbers 

a damp rag after a hard session of wire brushing helps reveal the number

 

on the VIN plate what are the last 2 letters -- for example my 110 is a Oct '89 reg on a G prefix & FA the F = 1990 model year which ran from Sept '89 to Aug '90. the A = Solihull original build factory location, the last 6 numbers are the actual chassis serial number.

 

[rhrwilliams]

First part of the Vin number is 

SALLDVBC7AA 

I have from web research.... 

SAL (land Rover)

LD (defender, 110, 130) 

V (90" (L/R) 

B (Defender 3door Station Wagon) 

C ( 2.5L, inline 4 cylinder, diesel) (NOT F which is tdi Diesel) 

7 (gearbox type)

A (What year is this ? - one website says this is undefined year, another said 1984) 

A (solihull) 

 

[rhrwilliams]

If A is 1984 the only plausible explanation I can think of is the VIN number is from a 1984 Land Rover Ninety which was registered for the road in 1986. 

My land rover now has the Vin number for that. The Vin number from the 1984 car has been riveted onto the clutch servo, with the chassis vin number and the windscreen vin plate being removed.

 

[L19MUD]

There won't have been a windscreen VIN plate at that age (either 1984 or 1994)

[western]

quite possible to have received a LR 200tdi repower kit engine, my own 110 got one in mid 1994.

a is any up to 1986 IIRC then 

ba = 1987

ea= 1988/89 model year

fa= 1989/90 [my 110 has this in the vin] 

ga = 1990/91

 

calVIN gives this ----------

SAL	Manufacturer code: Land Rover
LD	Model:  Ninety, or One Ten)
V	Wheel base: 92.9 inch, but designated 90
B	Body type: 2-door station wagon, or hard top
C	Engine type: 2.5 litre diesel (model 12J)
7	Steering and transmission: Right-hand drive (RHD), 5-speed manual (LT85, LT77, LT77S, R380 or other)
A	Model year: 1983, 1984
A	Assembly location: Solihull, UK
000000	Serial number

[tacr2man]

plastic items will usually have a date on them either direct or coded , plus other serial numbers on drivetrain, this should help give you a idea of what most of the vehicle is , whether its a clone , eg vin ground off chassis,  and vin plate  and number plates screwed on , or a gen vehicle that has had a s/h chassis put under it . If its the former then selling on would open you up to charges eg handling.  If it does start to look dodgy then best answer is go to police . Due to time passed , they may not be able to identify 

original vehicle , or that it is subject of crime , but then that clears you and how you dispose. Even if subject of crime seeing you purchased for reasonable price , and time involved  you would almost certainly retain ownership.  In the end its down to you .

[Snagger]

My 109 has parts from over a dozen other vehicles, all legally, so these issues don't necessarily mean yours is a ringer - the chassis number may have been removed before the current rules over rebuilt vehicles using only the original or a brand new chassis came into force.

My overall feeling s to aim to rebuild on a new chassis. n That looks a tidy vehicle otherwise, and they're only getting rarer now.  But it might be worth contacting the DVLA to enquire, just to hedge your bets and avoid any risk in the outlay for a new chassis.

[Mo Murphy]

I'm with Snagger, rechassis it.

Mo

[GW8IZR]

12 hours ago, Snagger said:

 But it might be worth contacting the DVLA to enquire, just to hedge your bets and avoid any risk in the outlay for a new chassis.

I think that would create a world of pain...

Not saying its wrong, but be prepared for all manner of fuss if you do.

 

[reb78]

1 hour ago, GW8IZR said:

I think that would create a world of pain...

Not saying its wrong, but be prepared for all manner of fuss if you do.

 

I agree completely. They dont know their arse from their elbow! By all means talk to the local police though I think you will get a sensible answer from them. 

[rhrwilliams]

I am not going to the DVLA or the Police. Its asking for trouble and the likelihood is I would loose either way; if it were to be identified as a stolen vehicle the insurance company who would have paid out on it would get it back and it would just get scrapped anyway. If it is not identified as stolen I would have a world of pain of having the vehicle trailered away , someone looking at it, probably costs etc. I loose either way. 

Ok - so I shall not sell it , repair and chassis swap (in the long term) it is. Its worth a lot to me as a working vehicle and I will just accept I cannot sell it without telling person buying it its nicked, and except it will never be worth lots of money in the future. A workhorse it always has been and forever it shall continue !

Is it feasible to weld the chassis up for a MOT / keep it going for another year or so before a chassis swap ? Will the MOT people accept plates welded on the rear cross member etc ? 

If I swap the chassis (Ive read a few threads on lifting body off in one go) can you do it with a tractor loader and just put straps underneath and lift it off ? It cant weigh more than half a ton ? 

Famous last works........."How hard can it be"

 

[Giles]

Not getting into the technicalities of dvlablahblah, but... with decent lifting aid (telehandler??), a bit of forward planning and a couple of competent mates, you can swap the chassis in a hard-grafting weekend.... (or take years over it). Your call!

[UdderlyOffroad]

4 hours ago, rhrwilliams said:

Ok - so I shall not sell it , repair and chassis swap (in the long term) it is. Its worth a lot to me as a working vehicle and I will just accept I cannot sell it without telling person buying it its nicked, and except it will never be worth lots of money in the future. A workhorse it always has been and forever it shall continue !

I'm not sure it is; your mate said it was a 'ringer', some posters above are being uber cautious - but all we know for certain from your posts is that it's a 'bitsa'.  

As Western pointed out, the fact the engine is a 200 Tdi could've been a factory upgrade kit. You have matching VIN numbers between ID plate and log book.

As you say, it's a workhorse, so nobody in the real world would expect all original bits to be still on the vehicle given the meccano-like nature of Landies.  See Snagger's post above as an example.

But anyhoo, you're keeping the truck, and will eventually re-chassis it.  To that end, I wouldn't bother trying to patch a cross member, as your bound to find more rot once you start prodding with a screwdriver - but obviously it depends on how you value your time spent fixing it.  Also, welding gas, wire and cosumables aren't free!  So yes, find the biggest set of forks you can for the front loader and get to it!!

The only caveat with that, inspect your bulkhead carefully for rot too; it's not that it's an MOT failure (except round the brake servo), but it will let in water and otherwise need attention eventually.

[rhrwilliams]

Thanks the help everyone. 

Understood r.e wasting time. I have no time to waste and I am happy to spend some money on it if welding is pointless. 

I don't have a tele handler I have a Case 1390 with loader. It can lift about a ton at an absolute push so ill use that if it will reach ! 

[western]

in the tech archive, look for my post about removing my 110 body when I replaced the chassis in late 2013

[Kevm]

I am maybe a bit late with this suggestion or it's totally useless but have you tried putting the reg number into some of the HPI/stolen check sites?

This is the first one I came across on the list, https://www.instantcarcheck.co.uk/

For the sake of a tenner you could find out if it shows up as anything bad.

Nice new galvanized chassis, sort any other rusty bits when its apart and it will last a long time and still be worth something.

[Snagger]

I know it's more work, but I think removing the body bit by bit is the only way to do the job properly.  Firstly, you won't risk damaging the body by lifting it in a way that it was never stressed to be. secondly, you'll be able to access all the dirty rotting bits hidden by panels and joins, especially the bulkhead, and thirdly, you'll be able to correctly set it up on the new chassis which will have slight variations from the current one.  If you look at vehicles which have had chassis swaps by lifting the body complete, they are seldom straight. Granted, many who do the panels individually don't bother getting their straight either, but this method doesn't give a better result and does hide a lot of corrosion that will not be found any other way.