Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[deep]

I generally engage my brain before driving.  That means not going at silly speeds in traffic, duh!  Also being aware and driving cautiously all the time, without being slow when it just isn't warranted.

And yet, on Monday a very large tree toppled across the road right in front of me (in my flat-fronted work van, it would have hurt had I been a few seconds quicker).  Next day, on a very exposed motorway, in very high winds but driving well under the speed limit, I almost got sucked into two stationary trucks blocking the left lane (the kind with flashing lights which are there to warn you someone is picking up a crisp wrapper or something like that).  Two very scary moments which were reminders that all the safety precautions in the world are only any good against reasonably predictable things.  

For sure, the new Defender will give you more protection than a lot of other cars but it's not a reason I'd buy one...

[landroversforever]

[Naks]

New all-electric Land Rover Defender on the way with 300-mile range: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/land-rover/defender/359382/new-all-electric-land-rover-defender-way-300-mile-range

"... The latest version of the popular 4x4 was only introduced in 2020, yet it’s likely that we’ll see fully electric versions of the 90, 110 and 130 arriving as part of a refreshed Defender line-up in 2025, with cars reaching customers in 2026.

The move is likely to mean a switch in platform tech, from the current D7 Premium Lightweight Architecture to Land Rover’s advanced new MLA Flex platform. MLA can support fully electric powertrains as well as internal combustion engines, and already underpins the firm’s new Range Rover and Range Rover Sport models, with all-electric versions of those cars due from 2024.

The switch in platform will come at a time when the Defender is due a mid-life refresh, but don’t expect huge alterations to the car’s look, despite the change in architecture. As with the Discovery Sport when it switched platforms to Land Rover’s Premium Transverse Architecture in 2019 (as part of a mid-life update) to allow for greater electrification, the look and dimensions of the Defender are expected to remain the same.

There may be some changes to the infotainment system inside, with a slightly larger screen, but the cabin design has been so well received by customers that it’s not expected to be altered too much. An increase in the use of sustainable materials is likely, though, as Land Rover looks to boost its credentials in this area.

The firm’s engineers are bullish about the prospect of its iconic 4x4 going electric and the benefits this will bring to its off-road performance. Greater control of the electric power delivery through software management is possible, along with advanced torque vectoring. Both will further boost the Defender’s serious off-roading ability, while a completely flat underside will deliver greater ground clearance, too.

Technical details of the Defender EV’s sister vehicle, the all-electric Range Rover due in 2024, have yet to be revealed, but Land Rover insiders suggest[b] a battery of around 100kWh will fit easily within the MLA platform, and the aim will be for at least 300 miles of all-electric running.[/b]

We’re yet to see how Land Rover differentiates the look of its all-electric models from internal combustion-engined cars, but with less cooling needed, we’d expect the intakes on the ICE model to be blanked over for the electric version – as previewed by our exclusive Defender EV image. ..."

 

 

[Naks]

no matter what they do, it MUST have the tank turn feature!!! 

https://twitter.com/GregKable/status/1594833774856003586

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Naks

[Snagger]

Rivian prototypes did that.  It was deemed to dangerous and too likely to break things to be included on production vehicles.  I can’t imagine LR being any different.  Torque vectoring through independent wheel motors is the ultimate 4wd system, though.  I wonder I’d they will be chassis mounted and use halfshafts or be hub mounted.  Hub mounted saves space for batteries, but may be too heavy sprung weight for good road manners.

[Naks]

7 minutes ago, Snagger said:

Rivian prototypes did that.  It was deemed to dangerous and too likely to break things to be included on production vehicles.  I can’t imagine LR being any different.  Torque vectoring through independent wheel motors is the ultimate 4wd system, though.  I wonder I’d they will be chassis mounted and use halfshafts or be hub mounted.  Hub mounted saves space for batteries, but may be too heavy sprung weight for good road manners.

Well, if the G-wagen can have it in production, I don't see why LR can't

[Snagger]

Is that on their production vehicles, or just a prototype or derestricted press vehicle?

[Naks]

Just now, Snagger said:

Is that on their production vehicles, or just a prototype or derestricted press vehicle?

this was a prototype, but sounds like it will be in production as well:

"@MercedesBenz's upcoming EQG gets four electric motors and a 'G-Turn' function that sees it spin on the spot Steering wheel paddles let the driver decide if it turns left or right as the throttle is planted. First prototype ride for me. Shaken and stirred."

[Snagger]

Hmm.  One thing on a prototype where the manufacturer has plenty of control over the application, especially in being able to demonstrate on gravel or loose surfaces, quite another for public sales where idiot owners try the same things on tarmac.  As I said, Rivian prototypes did this with press, but production vehicles had it inhibited because it would break transmission parts and be dangerous on the road.  Time will tell, but Mercedes would be very bold to leave that enabled.

[Naks]

Land Rover Defender Arctic Trucks AT35: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/land-rover-defender-arctic-trucks-at35-means-business-watch-it-tackle-some-snow-207282.html

 

 

"...Enter Iceland-based Arctic Trucks, or better said the off-road specialist’s Russian subsidiary. Based on the family-sized 110 with the mild-hybrid sixer under the hood, the AT35 in the featured clip doesn’t break a sweat on snowy trails in sub-zero weather. As implied, the main difference over the standard model comes in the guise of tires. As opposed to 255/50 by 20s (make that 30.1 inches for the outer diameter), the Land Rover Defender Arctic Trucks AT35 flaunts 315/60 by 20s (34.9 inches).

 

The 12.4-inch-wide tires are complemented by double-spoke wheels finished in dark gray. Arctic Trucks Russia further sweetens the deal with spacers for the front and rear suspension, updated geometry fore and aft, wheel-arch extensions at every corner of the luxury-oriented sport utility vehicle, anti-corrosion coating, branded mudguards, Artic Trucks bodyside decals, a recalibrated speedometer, and a torque wrench.

 

This fellow also boasts a ground clearance of 360 millimeters (14.1 inches) as opposed to 290 millimeters (11.4 inches) fully stock. In terms of approach and departure angles, the Russian subsidiary lists 39.1 and 40.1 degrees with coil springs or 38 and 40 degrees with air suspension.

 

Curb weight estimate? That would be anything between 2,541 and 2,598 kilograms (5,602 to 5,728 pounds), and the turning radius is a little worse as well at 7.5 meters (24.6 feet) compared to 6.5 meters (21.3 feet) unmodified. Arctic Trucks Russia didn’t publish any pricing details for the AT35 package, but don’t expect these modifications to come cheap. ..." 

 

 

[Naks]

Say what you want about the ND, but its safety is undeniable: https://www.facebook.com/groups/784537394985099/permalink/5443272755778183/

 

[ThreePointFive]

I don't think I've ever seen one where the truck came off worse....

[WeaselTrap]

To be fair I feel like this gives a bit of a skewed view of it, in favor of the Defender.

The structure of the truck cab got loaded in the worst possible way (perpendicular to its A pillar, from right to left.)

While the structure of the Defender got loaded as favorable as possible ( right on the node between the A pillar and the roof, giving the Defender the ability to dissipate the stresses lengthwise into the roof as well as right down into the A pillar)

Still not bad on the Defenders part

 

[ThreePointFive]

I don't think the occupants care who's favour it was in.

[JeremySteel]

With reference to Naks' posts I wonder what the curb/kerb weight will actually be for an EV RR or Defender?

Surely if they are expecting a decent tow capacity and range then the battery would have to be considerably more than 100kWh?
After all, look at Ford F150 Lightning , the GMC Hummer and similar;  monsters with whopping batteries.

A very difficult design choice I suspect. Sadly, I can't see hydrogen racing to the rescue anytime soon.
If I was towing a 1.5 tonne caravan or heavier trailer and had to stop every (say) 100 miles to charge I'd be unimpressed.
And the pain of unhitching and re-hitching would be a nightmare. Even worse in very cold weather.

[elbekko]

50 minutes ago, JeremySteel said:

With reference to Naks' posts I wonder what the curb/kerb weight will actually be for an EV RR or Defender?

Surely if they are expecting a decent tow capacity and range then the battery would have to be considerably more than 100kWh?
After all, look at Ford F150 Lightning , the GMC Hummer and similar;  monsters with whopping batteries.

A very difficult design choice I suspect. Sadly, I can't see hydrogen racing to the rescue anytime soon.
If I was towing a 1.5 tonne caravan or heavier trailer and had to stop every (say) 100 miles to charge I'd be unimpressed.
And the pain of unhitching and re-hitching would be a nightmare. Even worse in very cold weather.

Somewhere around has-its-own-gravitational-field. The good thing is you lose the weight of most of the drivetrain. Current batteries are around 270 Wh/kg, so for 200kWh it's around 750kg in batteries. Plus all the associated electronics and cooling.

I have a PHEV Mercedes GLE now, that I use in full electric when I can. Similar in size, weight  and aerodynamics to a new Defender. I haven't tried towing my box trailer in EV mode yet, but just cruising around yesterday, about 30km mixed motorway and smaller roads it did 42.5 kWh/100km. That'd give around 400km range with a 200kWh battery. Having a trailer will easily halve that, if not worse. TLF did some tests with the Ford Lightning that were, err, sad to see.

Not to mention that charging with a trailer attached is a disaster in 99% of charging stations.

[JeremySteel]

Yes, I saw the TFL show and others wrt towing heavy loads.  I think the Lightning with a 3-4 ton trailer was creating charge anxiety/panic at about ~100 miles.

And there was another review of a boring EV mid-sized car towing a tiny caravan - it highlighted the hassle of small EV charge bays and having to dump the caravan.

Never mind, you can always buy a 500kg e-Jerry can.

 

 

[Retroanaconda]

EV tech is really not advanced enough for towing yet - it’s just about manageable for normal driving for a lot of folk (so long as you don’t need to cover long distances quickly) but it’ll be a few years yet before it can properly challenge diesel for lugging things about. 

[deep]

Towing can hit petrol vehicles pretty hard too, to be fair.  My 6 cylinder Freelander 2 ordinarily reacts very well to sensitive driving, getting 29-33 m.p.g. on a long run (which always impresses me, being quite a big car with quite a big engine).  Recently, I moved house and I used it to tow a large vehicle transporter with, first, a Ferguson TEA tractor (plus a few heavy extras) and, later, my Series 3 SWB (which was packed to the gunnels).  Both big heavy loads (likely beyond the rated towing capacity, ahem) and economy literally halved.  Essentially, if your load weighs as much as your tow vehicle and has worse aerodynamics, you are asking twice as much of your power train.  If your big diesel isn't using vastly more fuel to haul that load, it probably isn't as efficient as it could be in normal running or you are driving it pretty hard in normal running!  Oddly, I think electric vehicles are "honest" in this respect, with a reasonably linear load to energy use ratio.

[Bowie69]

I get the same MPG towing or not with my Audi.... petrol obvs...

[Snagger]

20 hours ago, JeremySteel said:

 

A very difficult design choice I suspect. Sadly, I can't see hydrogen racing to the rescue anytime soon.
 

HFC vehicles will never happen on a commercial scale.  Distribution is difficult, pump extremely dangerous, the production of the HFC system complex and expensive and maintenance of it will be an extremely expensive specialist job, all because of how hard it is to stop hydrogen leaks, given that it is the smallest atom.  Then there is the undetectability of leaking hydrogen - invisible and no smell, it even burns completely invisibly.

After all that, you have the biggest issue of all.  Production.  It take so much energy to produce, for so little output, that without a grid generation system of at least double what the UK or Europe have, the energy required for production simply there.  Radcliffe is in talks with RR about installing their SMR on site at his chemical works for that purpose.  That may occur, but imagine the price of the hydrogen after having to recoup the costs of installing private nuclear power stations to run the plant.

The same applies to the idea of hydrogen domestic boilers, for the same reasons.  Leaks are prevalent enough on the existing system, where leaks are easier to detect (smell) and joints are easier to seal because of the comparatively enormous size of “natural gas” molecules.

I think the whole hydrogen fuel cell and home heating plan is a scam.  One that ministers have completely failed to see through.  It was worth investigating honestly and making prototype vehicles and such, but as far as mass adoption goes, it just isn’t viable.

[elbekko]

12 hours ago, deep said:

Towing can hit petrol vehicles pretty hard too, to be fair.  My 6 cylinder Freelander 2 ordinarily reacts very well to sensitive driving, getting 29-33 m.p.g. on a long run (which always impresses me, being quite a big car with quite a big engine).  Recently, I moved house and I used it to tow a large vehicle transporter with, first, a Ferguson TEA tractor (plus a few heavy extras) and, later, my Series 3 SWB (which was packed to the gunnels).  Both big heavy loads (likely beyond the rated towing capacity, ahem) and economy literally halved.  Essentially, if your load weighs as much as your tow vehicle and has worse aerodynamics, you are asking twice as much of your power train.  If your big diesel isn't using vastly more fuel to haul that load, it probably isn't as efficient as it could be in normal running or you are driving it pretty hard in normal running!  Oddly, I think electric vehicles are "honest" in this respect, with a reasonably linear load to energy use ratio.

Absolutely, but I can refill 100 liters in a few minutes, adding barely any time to a trip. Charging an electric car takes much longer, and if you have to do it every 100 miles while towing, the time starts passing by really really quickly.

[deep]

Fair call.

[JeremySteel]

A UK Gov Parliamentary report late last year actually highlighted that hydrogen was not the panacea. No Sh** Sherlock.
Obvious really, like many things: horses-for-courses. A part to play.

Not sure if HFCEV et similar are a scam. Germany is way ahead of UK in H2 infrastructure and they're not daft.
And, in a magic World, the H2 would be generated by renewable. Expensive? Yes.

Leaks, yes a problem as you describe and for the reasons you describe. But not beyond the wit of man. Embrittlement is another risk.

The smell?  Well, just like your home Natural Gas a smell is added.

Similar to Snagger I can't see FCEV for small cars.
But if it allows me and my  Defender/RR to tow for 250 miles between (10 minute) refills then I'm for it.
I suspect a divergence of power sources, assuming we're not held to a battery/lithium ransom by any countries.

But with recharging it's not just the pain of charging time and frequency, it's the fact that your 10+ metres of rig can't find a space to charge and/or pees off a lot of other people.

[ThreePointFive]

JCB think its worth messing with.