Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[deep]

Oh!  I wasn't aware that they'd stopped producing the Disco Sport.  

Obviously, I'm not as interested in those things as you would think, ahem.  In truth, my Land Rovers passion doesn't stretch far past beam axles and doesn't really include Pumas either.  (That despite running a Freelander2 as a daily car, oh dear.)  In my mind, if I was buying into the modern range, I'd be looking at alernatives like a Ford Everest or a GWM tank, especially as I can no longer afford a Grenadier.  I mean, really, what is the difference?  All comfy, quiet, spacious road cars that lean on electronics and diff lockers to work off road.

I do understand the new Defender.  The modern and moneyed market cares about what other people think and the versatility of a Discovery, coupled with a vaguely tougher, off-roady sort of image, must appeal strongly to those people.  It's also the total opposite of what has drawn me to Land Rovers since I first drove one half a century (!!) ago: that functional simplicity.  This week, I bought a ludicrously cheap, brand new, Chinese quad.  My goodness, cheap for a reason but, as I was fettling it to make sure it wouldn't fall apart, I felt some of that joy of working on a very basic old Land Rover.  Especially with knowing I had a welder and the fundamental tools needed to keep that thing going for a long time.

[Retroanaconda]

They still make the Disco Sport - it’s a very popular model and acts as the entry point to the range same as the freelander used to. 

[Chicken Drumstick]

Not sure what sort of money the Freelander was at lunch, but I'd presume it was pitched at a lower market than the current DS.

 

Just having a quick look at the LR website, they used to show price from next to each model in the main vehicles menu on the top left. Now no prices are shown. Going to Build you Own it shows the cheapest Discovery Sport as £51,600..... ouch!

[simonr]

I had a Discovery Sport as a loan car.  It was a couple of years old - but I thought "What a POS!".  It felt like a low-end Ford.  Very plasticey.  While it had lots of gizmos, it didn't have the one I needed, a Sat Nav.

I had assumed they were cheap - but it seems not.  I've driven several Freelanders (and owned one) and quite liked them!  While not a Defender, they felt like a Land Rover.

I also (a couple of weeks ago) had an Evoke as a loaner - and was much more impressed.  It felt much nicer to drive.  I thought they were based on the same platform?  Unfortunately the seat was uncomfortable - so there won't be an Evoke in my future.

I also had a brief test drive of a new Defender.  While I still think they look ugly - I was quite impressed!  It was immediately comfortable, great visibility and handled like a RRS.  I'd definitely consider one!  I surprised myself!

[Retroanaconda]

8 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Just having a quick look at the LR website, they used to show price from next to each model in the main vehicles menu on the top left. Now no prices are shown. Going to Build you Own it shows the cheapest Discovery Sport as £51,600..... ouch!

You need to look harder.

[Ed Poore]

25 minutes ago, simonr said:

I had a Discovery Sport as a loan car.  It was a couple of years old - but I thought "What a POS!".  It felt like a low-end Ford.  Very plasticey.  While it had lots of gizmos, it didn't have the one I needed, a Sat Nav.

I had assumed they were cheap - but it seems not.  I've driven several Freelanders (and owned one) and quite liked them!  While not a Defender, they felt like a Land Rover.

I also (a couple of weeks ago) had an Evoke as a loaner - and was much more impressed.  It felt much nicer to drive.  I thought they were based on the same platform?  Unfortunately the seat was uncomfortable - so there won't be an Evoke in my future.

I also had a brief test drive of a new Defender.  While I still think they look ugly - I was quite impressed!  It was immediately comfortable, great visibility and handled like a RRS.  I'd definitely consider one!  I surprised myself!

Funnily enough I thought more or less the opposite. My sister was looking for a larger vehicle but because of some of the sites she works on it had to be 4WD and LEZ compliant. She went and had a look at all the LR offerings. The Ewok was rejected because there just wasn't any space in it at all. She, her boyfriend and her best friend play hockey, the friend is a larger 6ft something goal keeper and her kit bag is enormous so boot space was a must for travelling to games.

I got involved when she'd narrowed it down to the Disco Sport and booked some test drives. It was no Range Rover but as a practical smaller vehicle I was mightily impressed. All of these were >2016MY I think because of emissions. No real comment on the evoke, I've not driven one but seen inside and they're tiny, and none of us are particularly big.

With regards to the new Defender I can see the appeal but for me who wouldn't buy new I really really really struggle to see what benefit one has over an L322. I've sat in @Retroanacondas and although the base model and comfortable doesn't hold a patch on the Range Rover. Perhaps when second hand prices fall to used L322 levels then maybe it'll be a bit more appealing but £12k for a very good 4.4TDV8 vs £40k+ for a second hand Pretender...

Ours gets abused with dead deer in the boot, dogs all over the place, scratched down narrow tracks etc. My only real desire was that could get some tyres with better sidewalls but I guess that's the price you pay for being able to stop a 2.7t car with trailer as quickly as most hatchbacks, brake discs bigger than most car's wheels. 

[reb78]

11 hours ago, Retroanaconda said:

They still make the Disco Sport - it’s a very popular model and acts as the entry point to the range same as the freelander used to. 

Disco sport is just the new name for the freelander isnt it? Its as much the freelander 3 as the new defender is the discovery 4a... i think JLR are just confused. 

[simonr]

3 hours ago, Ed Poore said:

Funnily enough I thought more or less the opposite.

That shows how subjectively we view cars!  People clearly like them - as they buy them!

[deep]

11 hours ago, reb78 said:

Disco sport is just the new name for the freelander isnt it? Its as much the freelander 3 as the new defender is the discovery 4a... i think JLR are just confused. 

That's what I had thought but someone mentioned on the previous page that line had stopped.  

I'm actually quite pleased it hasn't as the Freelander line makes more sense to me than the electronic Defender type.  I often think how mine feels so much like an old Range Rover to drive, despite the utterly different layout.  The Freelander2 is smaller inside, quieter, a lot more powerful and would handle much better if there was any feel in the steering, yet it someone retains much the same feel.  Less ground clearance off road but a similar amount of grip.  In a roundabout way, I think that is why we inevitably got a "Defender" that is so different to the original - there is a Range Rover inspiration across the line that sort of combines a limousine quality without some off-road credence and they wouldn't choose to lose that in any new Land Rover vehicle.

Which says to me that a "baby" Defender would be very much a continuation of the Freelander concept.  Who remembers the general disappointment when the original Freelander surfaced?  We were promised a baby Land Rover but, instead, got a road-biased car that didn't even have a low box!  Yet it did well for the company.  A friend of mine has an early version and it is lovely to drive and gets her up some nasty tracks quite easily.  That's all a baby Defender has to do really.

[Chicken Drumstick]

14 hours ago, reb78 said:

Disco sport is just the new name for the freelander isnt it? Its as much the freelander 3 as the new defender is the discovery 4a... i think JLR are just confused. 

It is more upmarket. The Freelander was an entry point into the brand and attainable for lots of people. Not sure on pricing but they must have been about the cheapest way into the brand bar maybe a base model pickup. 
 

The DS might still be the entry point but it is probably double the price of a new Vitara or other small crossover/suv. 
 

The Freelander was introduced to combat the affordable Japanese AWD’s such as these:

https://cars.suzuki.co.uk/new-cars/vitara/?CampaignCode=&source=ppc&gad=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyq_u8Ii1gAMVjsPtCh2aRA0FEAAYASABEgIZB_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
 

Maybe I’m just out of touch with prices. But £45,000-50,000 for an entry level DS does seem somewhat pricey. Certainly beyond the means for many. 
 

So I’d say yes. The Freelander line currently does not exist. Not in practice or in name. 

[reb78]

10 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

It is more upmarket. The Freelander was an entry point into the brand and attainable for lots of people. Not sure on pricing but they must have been about the cheapest way into the brand bar maybe a base model pickup. 
 

The DS might still be the entry point but it is probably double the price of a new Vitara or other small crossover/suv. 
 

The Freelander was introduced to combat the affordable Japanese AWD’s such as these:

https://cars.suzuki.co.uk/new-cars/vitara/?CampaignCode=&source=ppc&gad=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyq_u8Ii1gAMVjsPtCh2aRA0FEAAYASABEgIZB_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
 

Maybe I’m just out of touch with prices. But £45,000-50,000 for an entry level DS does seem somewhat pricey. Certainly beyond the means for many. 
 

So I’d say yes. The Freelander line currently does not exist. Not in practice or in name. 

I disagree. The entire range had seen massive uplifts in price. I mean a disco used to be the 40k model and now its what used to be RR territory. If you look at the price gaps between models they are kind of relatively what they used to be but all models have seen a big upshift in price. 

I'm sure there was a lot of press about the rebranding of freelander to disco sport when they did it. It was the same engine wasnt it. Not sure if it shared running gear too. 

[Snagger]

On 7/29/2023 at 1:03 PM, reb78 said:

Disco sport is just the new name for the freelander isnt it? Its as much the freelander 3 as the new defender is the discovery 4a... i think JLR are just confused. 

Broadly speaking, I think so.  They rebadged to the RR line to make the vehicle seem more exclusive and to justify another £10k on the list price, but it is the same purpose and position within the brand.

[deep]

From what I've gleaned over the years, there was a basic platform, developed under Ford, which went under a Volvo car (forget which), Ford Kuga/Escape, Freelander 2 and eventually Evoke and Discovery Sport and who knows what else?  The modern way seems to be to shuffle a range around (even buy in a model or two if need be) to "reposition" in a market obsessed with tiers and categories.  So, if they still make a Discovery Sport, it's closer to a Freelander 2 than a Freelander 2 was to the original Freelander and therefore a continuation of the line, despite the name or the price.  The baby Defender will surely be a version of that?  I can't see them developing something completely new from scratch again and I can't see them reworking the bigger models to make something cheaper either.

[Snagger]

There is a lot of model name confusion with LRs for the public.  Perhaps they are just trying to simplify things to RR for the luxury stuff, Defender for the supposed working or activity based stuff and Discovery for family vehicles, eliminating another name for a car that is easily be deemed a family vehicle.   As for “sport”, other brands use the term interchangeably with “light” or “zero” - it’s the less-than-principle product without directly saying so.

[landroversforever]

12 minutes ago, Snagger said:

There is a lot of model name confusion with LRs for the public.  Perhaps they are just trying to simplify things to RR for the luxury stuff, Defender for the supposed working or activity based stuff and Discovery for family vehicles, eliminating another name for a car that is easily be deemed a family vehicle.   As for “sport”, other brands use the term interchangeably with “light” or “zero” - it’s the less-than-principle product without directly saying so.

I wonder if it helps them to sell them at a higher price point. People subconsciously seeing them all look like the higher up ranges.  

[reb78]

1 hour ago, landroversforever said:

I wonder if it helps them to sell them at a higher price point. People subconsciously seeing them all look like the higher up ranges.  

Pretty sure this is the point exactly. Ooo look, i have a range rover. Errr no, you have an evoque...

[FridgeFreezer]

Given that LR are selling them as fast as they can make them, why would they make a high-volume cheaper model when they can flog 100k Range Rovers all day long?

[ThreePointFive]

33 minutes ago, reb78 said:

Pretty sure this is the point exactly. Ooo look, i have a range rover. Errr no, you have an evoque...

I get exactly why you say this, but Audi (for example) is a brand based 85% on badge value and the engineering of the 15% of their cars very few people can afford to buy so it's not exclusive to JLR or even unusual in the least.

[reb78]

Ignore

Edited July 31, 2023 by reb78

[reb78]

1 hour ago, ThreePointFive said:

I get exactly why you say this, but Audi (for example) is a brand based 85% on badge value and the engineering of the 15% of their cars very few people can afford to buy so it's not exclusive to JLR or even unusual in the least.

Oh. I'm sure thats the case. I only butted in as people thought the freelander had dissapeared when i'm.pretty sure it was just rebadged in a marketing gimmick. 

[Chicken Drumstick]

1 hour ago, reb78 said:

Oh. I'm sure thats the case. I only butted in as people thought the freelander had dissapeared when i'm.pretty sure it was just rebadged in a marketing gimmick. 

So it has disappeared then. You can't buy one or a model from the market space that model used to occupy. Selling another product using the same bits is not really the same thing. A Disco1 was mostly Range Rover...

[reb78]

3 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

So it has disappeared then. You can't buy one or a model from the market space that model used to occupy. Selling another product using the same bits is not really the same thing. A Disco1 was mostly Range Rover...

Yeah. Whatever. You know what I mean.

[Snagger]

13 hours ago, landroversforever said:

I wonder if it helps them to sell them at a higher price point. People subconsciously seeing them all look like the higher up ranges.  

“I refer the gentleman to the answer I gave earlier”.  Ie. yes.

[elbekko]

On 7/31/2023 at 4:06 PM, FridgeFreezer said:

Given that LR are selling them as fast as they can make them, why would they make a high-volume cheaper model when they can flog 100k Range Rovers all day long?

Fleet emissions?

[Naks]