Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[Snagger]

The steering damper on Series vehicles doesn’t change the feel or self centring much, it just reduces light shimmy and any backward inputs from pot holes, tree stumps and such, just like on a Defender.  The self centring strength is related to castor angle, not the steering box.  I suspect that Ineos will increase the castor at some point to address the issue, considering how much is made of it.  It’s little different from a cheaply botches suspension lift on a Defender decreasing the castor angle, but correcting bushes or radius arms restoring the 3 degree castor to restore the handling.

[elbekko]

I guess the real question is: does it steer the same as a previous gen G wagon?

I doubt it, so obviously Steyr know how to make a solid axle steer.

[Lightning]

"Therefore I would say that absolutely there is a demand and want for such vehicles. However, JLR have actively chosen not to compete in that market segment"

Sadly yes, that is clearly the case that LR have moved away from the Utility market.

Good job there's plenty of old Defenders to go round. l'm currently looking for another to use as a second vehicle, as l still love them.

Edited June 25 by Lightning

[Lightning]

As for the prices. Yes very interesting. I bought a new Jimny a few years back for £19.5k. Had Land Rover still offered a proper 4x4 at similar money it would have been a real contender. 

 

We also have a 2020 Jimny, new price just under 20k and that's the top specification SZ5 version.

The Grenadier starts at £65,000. The cheapest new Defender is now £57,000.

Why can't someone produce a larger Jimny for £30,000 

Edited June 25 by Lightning

[ThreePointFive]

I hate to side with The Polishers, but if any prominent part of a £50k+ vehicle was rusting, I'd have it replaced too and drink as much free dealership coffee as I could while waiting. 

The question about the £30k Suzuki Jimny is the point of this whole debate for me. Neither the Defender nor the (£65k!) Grenadier answer the exam question.

[Lightning]

£65k is the start price of a Grenadier and gets you the base two seat Commercial van version.

The five seat ones start at £75,000. Some will say "lt's still a lot cheaper than a G-Wagon" and you can "easily spend over £100,000 on a new Defender"

These prices are insane. 90% of customers buy on PCP according to my local LR dealer, so they are never actually owning the vehicle. I can see that some owners round here are already on their second Defender, having cast off the first one unloved like an old washing machine.

Mine cost £55,000 but being the Commercial l've had over £14,000 tax back on the purchase, making it around £40,000. Had l been VAT registered l would have got the VAT back as well. Which is why there's still a waiting list for this version.

LR have now deleted the "base" model Commercial which cost £51,000 and the cheapest is now the "S" at £57,000.

 

Edited June 25 by Lightning

[FridgeFreezer]

2 hours ago, Lightning said:

The Grenadier starts at £65,000. The cheapest new Defender is now £57,000.

The opposite of what was promised when they announced the Grenadier - I'm sure starting prices under 40k were being touted at the time, or at the very least many thousands cheaper than any Defender you could hope to buy.

[Chicken Drumstick]

43 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

The opposite of what was promised when they announced the Grenadier - I'm sure starting prices under 40k were being touted at the time, or at the very least many thousands cheaper than any Defender you could hope to buy.

Not sure on the Grenadier pricing. I personally don’t recall anything of the kind. As even the past Land Cruiser or good spec Ranger have been mid £40k for a long long time. Ineos would never have been under cutting them. That said, I do agree they are currently over priced. But from a business model of you think you can sell almost as many at £70k+ as you would at £45k why would you not?

[Chicken Drumstick]

58 minutes ago, Lightning said:

£65k is the start price of a Grenadier and gets you the base two seat Commercial van version.

The five seat ones start at £75,000. Some will say "lt's still a lot cheaper than a G-Wagon" and you can "easily spend over £100,000 on a new Defender"

These prices are insane. 90% of customers buy on PCP according to my local LR dealer, so they are never actually owning the vehicle. I can see that some owners round here are already on their second Defender, having cast off the first one unloved like an old washing machine.

Mine cost £55,000 but being the Commercial l've had over £14,000 tax back on the purchase, making it around £40,000. Had l been VAT registered l would have got the VAT back as well. Which is why there's still a waiting list for this version.

LR have now deleted the "base" model Commercial which cost £51,000 and the cheapest is now the "S" at £57,000.

 

The new Defender also needs a fair few options ticking IMO. No matter how I play about with the configurator it always ends up just under £70k for a reasonable spec. 

e.g.

https://build.landrover/85C14401

[ThreePointFive]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

The opposite of what was promised when they announced the Grenadier - I'm sure starting prices under 40k were being touted at the time, or at the very least many thousands cheaper than any Defender you could hope to buy.

It's just as well I can't be bothered to re-read the first pages of the Grenadier thread. Some people definitely drank the Kool-Aid.

The issue is that the Grenadier was decided by many as the solution before it was finished, rather than starting from the question of "what do we need the vehicle to do?" and selecting the offering that best matched it.

[jeremy996]

A bare Grenadier Commercial is just under £52k +VAT & OTR, mine would be £70k inclusive of VAT, (Christ - it has gone up £10K in a year!), our local Suzuki dealer has a posh Jimny van on the forecourt at £24k.

[Anderzander]

I don’t know anything about car manufacturing. I would think though that the Grendier just reflects what it cost to design, test and build with a reasonable margin on top?

Theyve worked with good suppliers, (BMW, Streyer, Recaro etc) they’ve gone for quality engineering, they have had to start from scratch in terms of production facilities, tooling, recruitment and staff, type approvals etc, and they are a one make one model manufacturer- so no economies of scale.

I think the price has come out at more than they wanted it to, they’ve almost said as much I think? They may even as a result be working at lower margins in order to establish the brand?

Obviously I don’t know their commercial strategy - but they won’t be being greedy or naive. If they wanted to just maximise return on investment they wouldn’t have tried to build what they did - and they know that. 

You can view it as a labour of love or as a vanity project - but I think it’s pretty clear it isn’t to make anyone rich. They’ll want it sustainable of course.

[Lightning]

"The new Defender also needs a fair few options ticking IMO. No matter how I play about with the configurator it always ends up just under £70k for a reasonable spec"

Does it though? l bought a base specification coil spring 90 Commercial and it's very well specified with everything you need. l did add a tow bar, centre console and cold climate pack (heated screen, leather steering wheel, heated seats) plus front fog lamps.

 Most of the rest of it is just un-necessary bling lMO.

l guess it depends what vehicle you're coming from. With me it was a Defender TD5. 
 

[Chicken Drumstick]

14 hours ago, Lightning said:

"The new Defender also needs a fair few options ticking IMO. No matter how I play about with the configurator it always ends up just under £70k for a reasonable spec"

Does it though? l bought a base specification coil spring 90 Commercial and it's very well specified with everything you need. l did add a tow bar, centre console and cold climate pack (heated screen, leather steering wheel, heated seats) plus front fog lamps.

 Most of the rest of it is just un-necessary bling lMO.

l guess it depends what vehicle you're coming from. With me it was a Defender TD5. 
 

Certainly not knocking your example. But if I was paying that kind of money there are some things I’d want. In the link I supplied I could forgo the heads up display and panoramic roof. But tbh a premium vehicle should have premium stuff on it. The spec has the basic seats and interior still. 
 

The only other options are air suspension and the rear diff. Which for me would be must haves. I do admit I’ve not driven a coil example. But logically it must be compromised on and off road vs the air setup. 
 

As for replacing a vehicle. Well in truth this is way way beyond my price range and budget, so it is all rather academic. But it most certainly wouldn’t be replacing the old 90 or even the Jimny. More as a Range Rover replacement. 

[steve b]

1 hour ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

 I do admit I’ve not driven a coil example. But logically it must be compromised on and off road vs the air setup. 
 

Why?

[Lightning]

The coil spring version is very good. However the air spring version has an adjustable ride height so you can increase the ground clearance for off road driving.

Also the air spring does have a better ride quality, in that it's a bit smoother over rough roads. 

Edited June 26 by Lightning

[Chicken Drumstick]

1 hour ago, steve b said:

Why?

The coil version rides higher than the air on road. So potential more body roll and higher roll centre. Not sure if the air has any other fancy in corner dynamic abilities too. I know it isn’t ACE. But has greater breath of spring rates than standard fixed coils. 
 

Coils obviously don’t have the access ride height either. Which if you knew my Mrs would be a major deal breaker type of decision. 
 

Off road the difference is even bigger. The obvious one being ride height and ground clearance. The coil is a middle height between the road and off road air heights. So has less clearance and thus worse approach/departure angles too. And the lack of ability to raise even higher if it becomes beached. 
 

Arguably more significant is the lack of the cross linked setup the air has. This is where it aims to mimic a live axle to an extent. By pushing the opposite wheel down when one is raised by having the air systems linked. This allows for more weight transfer and body roll and more likely to keep the wheels on the ground. That said even with the air suspension the modern Defender lifts wheels all over the show. A coil one would be worse in this regard. 
 

Now I’m not knocking the coil version. It is still capable. But for me for a vehicle of this price when they offer a much more capable suspension setup. It is a compromise I’d personally not be happy making. On coils it would be more akin to a Freelander off road, just with a low range. Freelanders aren’t bad (have a Td4 one). But the suspension is a huge compromise on technical terrain. 
 

I would be very interested to see how a coil Defender would cope with this test. Diagonal wheels on raised ramps.

 

The air kept all the wheels on the ground, despite lifting wheels Willy nilly on the off road section.

Interestingly the Freelander will not drive up the ramps like this. You end up with major clutch slip and/or wheel spin  it might with momentum bump up. But crawling up is not an option without significant risk of over shooting the top once the tcs kicks in fully. I’ve tried 3 or 4 times with different ramps and on different surfaces.

Also interestingly, my brothers Renegade did drive up with only minor drama (minor wheel spin). Less revs needed for the tcs compared to the Freelander and a lower 1st gear with an autobox. But it did end up with a wheel dangling a long way in the air. My hunch is a coil Defender would behave more akin to the Renegade than it would the EAS equipped Defender.

 

[Lightning]

Another advantage of air suspension is that it's self levelling so if you load the vehicle up it doesn't sink down at the back. l did try to add the air suspension a few months after l placed the order but l was told it could knock my order to the back of the queue.

However l don't do extreme off road and l don't explore the limits of the vehicle's road holding so the coil spring version has been fine for me. 

l placed the order at £47,000 including VAT and by the time l collected the vehicle a year later the price had increased to £55,000 (the price was not fixed even though l had signed the order and paid a deposit) so l am glad l didn't add the air suspension in the end.

At least when lneos bashed up the price of the Grenadier from £51,000 to £65,000 they honoured the lower price for those who had already signed an order.

Edited June 26 by Lightning

[Lightning]

 

Coil springs

Air springs

Can't beat an old Defender though!

Edited June 26 by Lightning

[deep]

It would be coil springs all the way for me.  Not to deny the theoretical and actual advantages of air, just a whole lot more computer-ing faff and they are hopelessly stiff when lifted.  I've seen (well, heard, ouch) an airbag pop off road and it was not easy to replace it.  Further, there is absolutely no reason air would give a smoother ride than a coil as there is no stiction with coil springs.  Unless the suspension is just running soft at low heights, which is a compromise.

Also, my Freelanders would cope with a significantly bigger ramp than that on bog standard suspension.  I'm heading away for a few days and haven't got time to find the photo but can do if someone reminds me on Monday (sieve like a memory, sadly).

[Chicken Drumstick]

2 hours ago, deep said:

It would be coil springs all the way for me.  Not to deny the theoretical and actual advantages of air, just a whole lot more computer-ing faff and they are hopelessly stiff when lifted.  I've seen (well, heard, ouch) an airbag pop off road and it was not easy to replace it.  Further, there is absolutely no reason air would give a smoother ride than a coil as there is no stiction with coil springs.  Unless the suspension is just running soft at low heights, which is a compromise.

Also, my Freelanders would cope with a significantly bigger ramp than that on bog standard suspension.  I'm heading away for a few days and haven't got time to find the photo but can do if someone reminds me on Monday (sieve like a memory, sadly).

I agree that overall coils would likely be fine. Def interesting about the Freelander. Just to clarify it is a ramp under the front drivers wheel and rear passenger. So it forces a cross axle. With the Td4 Freelander I have it’ll spin the wheels and either stall or you have to induce major clutch slip. The tcs won’t kick in until 2500rpm or higher. Which with no low box means it’ll want to fairly violently shoot forwards once it does kick in. It could be possible to time it to stop at the top, but I honestly feel it would more likely result in driving over the top and damaging the drivers side sill. 
 

An auto Freelander may have more success. If it was just a mud mound that you intended to drive completely over it would certainly manage it. But in this test I chalk it up as a fail. On the flip side the new Defender drove up slowly and effortlessly without spinning a wheel. 
 

 

[Lightning]

The rear of my coil spring equipped new Defender doesn't sag noticeably even when loaded up and with the caravan attached.

[Snagger]

8 hours ago, deep said:

It would be coil springs all the way for me.  Not to deny the theoretical and actual advantages of air, just a whole lot more computer-ing faff and they are hopelessly stiff when lifted.  I've seen (well, heard, ouch) an airbag pop off road and it was not easy to replace it.  Further, there is absolutely no reason air would give a smoother ride than a coil as there is no stiction with coil springs.  Unless the suspension is just running soft at low heights, which is a compromise.

Also, my Freelanders would cope with a significantly bigger ramp than that on bog standard suspension.  I'm heading away for a few days and haven't got time to find the photo but can do if someone reminds me on Monday (sieve like a memory, sadly).

My thoughts too.  I saw (heard, too, even though we were about 200yds behind) a D2 split a rear air spring on the roads into Salbertrand on a convoy trip around the Alps, hardly pushing it.  Since we were on paved road, they were able to limp on the bump stops to the camp site.  It was ripped from top to bottom.  None of the JLR dealers would supply an air spring, and they ended up waiting four days for an aftermarket coil-conversion kit, which was fitted collectively at the camp site.  The other D2 owners then spent the rest of the trip terrified of the same happening to them.  The trip leaders said they had seen it happen many times, but of course never a coil spring failure.

You can imagine how many people in Dubai have modern LRs and RRs, including many of my neighbours and colleagues.  Their cars spend as much time in workshops as on the road, and the most common failure is the EAS, where spring perish from the heat, UV and abrasion of all the dust and sand, and compressors burn out because of compensating for leaks and having clogged filters.  The ride height sensors fail a lot too.

All that electronic trickery of cross-linking the airbags laterally is just simulating what a live beam axle already gives you.  Air suspension has on road advantages, able to lower for entry and exit and for high speed, and manual operation to park in a low garage must be handy, but I think it’s a liability off road - you see the modern LRs tottering about on uneven surfaces like a 5 year old wearing her mother’s stilettos.  They appear to depend entirely on their e-lockers or torque vectoring to make any progress.

 

[elbekko]

I'll take air suspension over coils any day, but yes, there are some disadvantages. Mainly maintenance.

Personally I've only popped one bag, and that was with a heavy trailer on a bad road, and I'm pretty sure that corner was having valve issues (right rear, of course). A few years ago a friend popped a bag while off-roading, and we swapped it out on the side of the road in 10 minutes. It's trivial, and much easier than a coil spring, as there's no pressure on it.

As for coil springs not failing, ask VW guys about that one.

The ramp test looks fun, I should try that with the GLE. Although I'm sure it'll just crawl up them, it does with the caravan levelling ramps we have for camping.

[landroversforever]

Snagger's Dubai use case is a bit different, but most people moaning about air suspension 'reliability' is based on experience of 15-20 year old bags that have never been changed. Coil springs can be equally shagged over that time, but without people being aware.