Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[Ed Poore]

2 minutes ago, Red90 said:

That video was released months ago.

And your point being?

[deep]

11 hours ago, Naks said:

It's being put through its paces in Namibia:





 

While it always looks like fun driving on dirt tracks through nice dry places like Namibia, I find this photo in particular alarming, with the low camera angle.  Those aren't deep ruts or anything but it wouldn't take much a of a rock to do some damage.  Ground clearance at standard height is dreadful but, if you lift it up on the air suspension to fix that, it would be as stiff as an empty cattle truck and very unpleasant at any sort of speed.  Sadly, only the 90 has the coil suspension option, sigh.

I'm also intrigued that the winches are fitted but the optional recovery points aren't.  Are you supposed to just screw them in when you need them??

Edited February 18, 2020 by deep
coils

[Ex Member]

33 minutes ago, Ed Poore said:

And your point being?

You said they should have launched it with this video.

I'm saying that they did.  This video came out at the same time as the product launch.

[Tanuki]

Rather than crazy low-speed-off-road stuff, I'd much rather see videos of the Defender 2.0 doing the classic "Elk-swerve" manoeuvre while towing a 3.5 Tonne-laden trailer.

Or cruising at Euro-legal limits on motorways/autobahns/autostradas while dealing with the wind-wash while passing slow 70MPH truck-convoys.

[Trailer, of course, should have 21st-century independent per-wheel ABS and snake-sensors providing realtime feedback to the towcar].

That's the sort of situation the likely Defender 2.0 purchasers are living: when the racehorse in the horsebox you're towing, or the car you're trailering to a trackday, is worth 3x the cost of the towcar-and-trailer combined.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Tanuki

[Ex Member]

The rich people that buy these things only care if their neighbour is jealous of them having one or not. I'm not sure if there is anything there that would make them buy this instead of a RR.

[Cynic-al]

I saw them doing the doughnuts at silverstone classic once in the jags, couldn't be bothered to queue, after a while the smell of rubber made me feel a bit sick, hope the passengers had a good stomach

Yep I can see the shogun too! Maybe theres only so much you can do design wise with a jacked up box on wheels. 

What they should've done is that live at the launch. The same car doing it start to finish, now that would've been a show! 

[Jamie_grieve]

1 hour ago, Cynic-al said:

Possibly the biggest insult for poor old Land Rover is when this image appeared on my screen I thought it was 3 Isuzu Troopers jumping

Lol, I thought Nissan Patrol. 

[Ex Member]

8 minutes ago, Jamie_grieve said:

Lol, I thought Nissan Patrol. 

And nobody at any time has thought Defender.

[Jamie_grieve]

1 hour ago, deep said:

 Those aren't deep ruts or anything but it wouldn't take much a of a rock to do some damage.  Ground clearance at standard height is dreadful but, if you lift it up on the air suspension to fix that, it would be as stiff as an empty cattle truck and very unpleasant at any sort of speed.

In a similar vein, there is nowhere at all a highlift jack could be employed to recover from ruts let alone change a tyre on soft ground with the ridiculous factory scissor jack provided in the one I looked at.

1 hour ago, deep said:

I'm also intrigued that the winches are fitted but the optional recovery points aren't.  Are you supposed to just screw them in when you need them??

Interestingly, when I went to look at a new 110 doing the rounds at local dealerships a few months back, it had no provision at all for recovery, not even the towing eye in the lower middle of the front subframe nor a space in the plastic undertray to access it. Nobody amongst the JLR staff present could describe where the recovery points were or where the recovery eye which I found in the boot would go. I guess it was a late prototype and none of the event people had been trained for awkward questions a typical Defender operator might ask. There are provisions for two on the back, one on each side but nothing central to pull in a straight line with. On the front there doesn't seem like anything substantial until way back at the first crossmember. I later asked a designer of the front subframe some questions but unfortunately he didn't respond. 

 

 

 

[Badger110]

1 hour ago, Red90 said:

You said they should have launched it with this video.

I'm saying that they did.  This video came out at the same time as the product launch.

 

A quick google search shows this video as a day old.  No news coverage of it previous to the last past 24 hours.

Of all the forums and media coverage and no one has mentioned this video previous to yesterday/today.

 

if it was done months ago, someone kept it very well hidden.

 

[Ex Member]

28 minutes ago, Badger110 said:

A quick google search shows this video as a day old.  No news coverage of it previous to the last past 24 hours.

Of all the forums and media coverage and no one has mentioned this video previous to yesterday/today.

if it was done months ago, someone kept it very well hidden.

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Red90

[Badger110]

That's not the video

[Ex Member]

8 minutes ago, Badger110 said:

That's not the video

Same carp marketing, slightly different editing. It is that kind of carp video that gets areas closed down. Bunch of idiots wrecking vehicles and the land.

[Badger110]

6 minutes ago, Red90 said:

Same carp marketing, slightly different editing. It is that kind of carp video that gets areas closed down. Bunch of idiots wrecking vehicles and the land.

 

 It's a professional stunt production for the upcoming James Bond film. 

I can tell you're a fan 😂

 

[Ed Poore]

12 hours ago, deep said:

While it always looks like fun driving on dirt tracks through nice dry places like Namibia, I find this photo in particular alarming, with the low camera angle.  Those aren't deep ruts or anything but it wouldn't take much a of a rock to do some damage.  Ground clearance at standard height is dreadful but, if you lift it up on the air suspension to fix that, it would be as stiff as an empty cattle truck and very unpleasant at any sort of speed.  Sadly, only the 90 has the coil suspension option, sigh.

Looking at that particular photo if the suspension is in standard height I'd have said that at worst it has the same if not better ground clearance than a standard "Defender Classic", remember there's not a huge amount of clearance under the diff. If you hit something hard off-road in the classic Defender you're likely going to hit the diff and in standard setup smash in the diff housing. In the new Defender you'll hear a crunch as you break some plastic and then likely a whump as you hit a sub-frame. I know which is more likely to drive away in that scenario.

When I compared my L322 and Defender side-by-side the L322 in normal ride height had more ground clearance than the Defender. I can't see JLR making the new Defender have less clearance than a Range Rover. Lifted up to it's off-road setting on the air suspension it was a far cry from "stiff as an empty cattle truck and very unpleasant at any sort of speed". It certainly wasn't diff, as you approached the limit where it would drop the suspension (30mph if I remember correctly) then it was unpleasant, not because it was stiff but because it was so god damn high off the ground and body roll was substantial.

Hands down if you're comparing show-room spec to show-room spec the newer Land Rover offerings (talking proper line-up such as RR Vogue, RR Sport, Disco and lets face it almost certainly the new Defender) will absolutely trounce a "Defender Classic" off-road. The only place I can see the daddy of them beating them is on width and (at least to begin with) cost of repair.

On the subject of air-suspension, again my personal experience, I don't any major downside to it. The original front set of airbags on my L322 got replaced at 140k which is approximately 60k more than the set of springs on my 110 lasted. The original rears from 2007 are still on there with the new owner and I think it's approaching the 200k mark, I can find out on the weekend. Yes they were a bit of a pain when they went because I was on the bump stops but cost-wise I'd put them on-par with top-of-the-line springs and dampers for a Defender and almost certainly more comfortable. They offer far more flexibility over a coil setup and as @FridgeFreezer pointed out earlier in the thread if you're worried about puncturing one on a long expedition they don't actually occupy much space (certainly the rears flat-pack but the fronts not quite as compact but certainly comparable space to a spare spring).

But what do I know I haven't owned a modern Land Rover and taken it off-road the same places as I've taken a Defender, a decent chunk of forum members can corroborate that 

[Naks]

 

[missingsid]

11 hours ago, Red90 said:

 

Yeh and the current Amazon wharehouse ad makes me want to work there too.

[geoffbeaumont]

19 hours ago, deep said:

Ground clearance at standard height is dreadful but, if you lift it up on the air suspension to fix that, it would be as stiff as an empty cattle truck and very unpleasant at any sort of speed.

Not if they've designed the air spring pistons correctly - the pistons are normally shaped so that the spring rates drop as the bladder is extended. I.e. the suspension becomes softer not harder as it is raised. That's not true of some early systems, but it is true of most (all?) modern ones.

[Ex Member]

37 minutes ago, geoffbeaumont said:

Not if they've designed the air spring pistons correctly - the pistons are normally shaped so that the spring rates drop as the bladder is extended. I.e. the suspension becomes softer not harder as it is raised. That's not true of some early systems, but it is true of most (all?) modern ones.

They become rough because they have no extension travel left.

[klivins]

A few years ago I found myself in my Def 110 accompanied by a bloke with Disco 3 in rural Russia, Kostroma region, on a very muddy track. The Disco 3 had all bells and whistles, plus much more of aftermarket stuff, and coped with the terrain quite good. In fact, on same occasions it was better than my Def, what had just AT tyres, otherwise - bog standard. 

It all lasted, until Disco started to fire under the bonnet. We quickly extinguished it, but... Some electronics was fried, and fancy air suspension was nonoperational. With Disco 3 laying flat on its belly it took us next day and a very big tractor, sourced 40 kms away, to get the bloody thing out. 2 more days to get the Disco to the nearest dealer, where it was quoted in excess of 4000 euros...to diagnose! Not to fix, but to diagnose whats wrong with it!

If that would have happened to the Defender, well, some replaced wiring later it would have happily continued. 

And the lesson? No thank you, if I'd need a transport for overland, then no new Defender for me, nor any of other LandRover products. Too much to go wrong. 

[steve b]

...and there you have it in one post , not one of JLR's current products have any long term durability in severe use and no hope of in the field repairs when something lets go .

Designed , marketed and sold for tarmac use and lifestyle statement not use .

I also thought the vehicles in the video looked like Trooper/shogun cross breeds.

Steve b

[Chicken Drumstick]

So not directly relevant to this thread. But somewhat related. 
 

I bought myself a new 4x4 last week. It is everything I’d love and hope Land Rover would want to have offered me. But alas it isn’t a Land Rover product. Although I am thus far very pleased with my purchase. 
 

Ironically my brother also bought a new 4wd only 10 days prior. He also didn’t buy a Land Rover either. Simply down to Land Rover not offering the right sort of vehicle at all and nothing at remotely the right sort of money.

We are both diehard Land Rover fanatics too. And own older proper Land Rovers. But it is a shame that our favourite marque seems completely uninterested in wanting offer vehicles we’d like to purchase. Instead they seem obsessed with having the biggest range of essentially the same SUV just in different sizes and price points. 
 

Tbh if I could have bought a traditional modernised variant of a 90 I would have considered it. As it was I didn’t even step foot in a Land Rover dealership. All I can conclude is Land Rover have no need or want for customers such as my brother or myself. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Chicken Drumstick

[Cynic-al]

A fiat and a suzuki, two of my favourites!

It all comes down to £ per vehicle off the production line. They struggle to make anything affordable in the UK without making lots and lots and lots. There are not lots and lots and lots of buyers for things aimed more off road than on, ones which can be fixed with twine and a bush knife, so instead they have gone for higher priced items. We will have to see if Jim Ratcliffes pet hobby project turns into anything!

[Naks]

seen on FB, from Dave van Graan, a chap who is doing a walking tour around Namibia:

"Here are a few photos of the new Land Rover Defender. Land Rover is currently conducting a 2 month test on these vehicles. They drive much the same route that I walked plus a few other tough routes from Opuwu, van Zyls Pass, to the Skeleton coast National Park, Puros, Sesfontein and back to Opuwu. They do not spare these cars and they are really well tested. They really have a new look and nothing like the old Defender."

 

if you google some of the places he mentions, especially Van Zyl's Pass, you will understand how tough these vehicles are having it.

[Chicken Drumstick]

I am genuinely very interested in the Ineos. It sounds like it could be an ideal vehicle for many. 
 

I also very much like the Wrangler. Although it is horribly over priced in the UK. 
 

As for the Renegade, it is a little unfair to label it as a Fiat unless you would also label a Freelander 2 as a Ford Mondeo 😉 and in Trailhawk guise has some nice touches that make it quite off road focused and capable. Under body protection/skid plates, a suspension lift, low range/gear mode, terrain system, recovery points. All in a vehicle that isn’t too big either. Plus quite a good aftermarket too. A a Discovery Sport/Evoque is probably similar on many levels, but Land Rover don’t offer either in an off road focused guise. And they seem to be bigger and heavier vehicles.