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Jamie_grieve

Thoughts and musings on the new defender

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3 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

More money in more pricey vehicles.

Simple business.

Also, JLR don't have vast amounts of cash compared to the likes of Toyota or Mercedes, they likely couldn't even begin to compete with a high-volume low-cost utility vehicle produced by the Japanese - remember the likes of Toyota, Nissan, Mitusbishi etc. are spreading R&D for things like axles or engines across everything from fork-lifts to supertankers. JLR are small player, high-value low-volume is where they can compete.

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another photo from Van Zyl's Pass
 

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I had a poke around one in the village the other week. Sadly didn’t get that much time as it was panto time!

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Its a lovely place to sit and a really nice car. I just can’t help but think it should have been the new discovery. I had a look under the back of it and at the exhaust, which actually is pretty well tucked in the gap. Take a late classic defender and the exhaust at the back also hangs pretty low!

Overall, I think they’ve done a really nice job. I just feel that they could have done so much more with the styling. The front could have looked more defender, even if it’s just when the lights are on (like the transit custom, I’m sure their lights are the same spacing as a defender), and I have to say the rear is the biggest let down with the lighting and design cues.

If I had the cash, I’d have one in a heartbeat. I’ll always wish that JLR had made the defender more in keeping with the design and use of the old one, much like the wrangler is to the old Willys. But sadly for the size of a manufacturer like JLR, for the given cost of building a car, going away from the utility market they can make so much more money on a car. 

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And something to add that’s one of gripes from the action pictures, is whilst the wheel downward travel is comparable to an old defender, I think it’s missing out most by the lack of bump travel. 

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In some ways you have to admire the size of balls some of the JLR top brass must have. Plastic fake chequer plate on a plastic fake Defender..... 😂

F8226653-27E9-4B5C-9510-F86E45223091.jpe

Wonder if you could really stand on those wing tops too? 👣

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3 hours ago, landroversforever said:

If I had the cash, I’d have one in a heartbeat. I’ll always wish that JLR had made the defender more in keeping with the design and use of the old one, much like the wrangler is to the old Willys. But sadly for the size of a manufacturer like JLR, for the given cost of building a car, going away from the utility market they can make so much more money on a car. 

Personally, I think the looks and more importantly the price will result in a failure For LR. If it succeeds in replacing D5 sales, that’s a failure for the company as a whole. At the prices they’ve set, I just can’t see it selling in high enough incremental sales for LR. A couple of years and we’ll know the answer.

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I suspect it will sell very well initially. I also suspect supply may be deliberately restricted to help keep interest. At the end of the day, lots of people will want something that is difficult to get hold of. But ultimately I think the appeal will dwindle pretty quick and it this new model just isn't iconic enough and true enough to the Series/Defender formula to remain the coolest 4x4 on the block.

Think back to when the D3 was first launched, loads of hype. It was a revolutionary milestone in LR design. But look now, they are far less desirable. While a 2005 Td5 Defender is highly sort after.

If I'm honest, I think Mercedes hit the bullseye with the G-Wagen. Even though I think the new one is less cool than the previous variant. It is still hugely distinctive and very desirably from all walks of life. The Wrangler and Jimny are also great examples of hitting the mark too.

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4 hours ago, landroversforever said:

I had a poke around one in the village the other week. Sadly didn’t get that much time as it was panto time!

115B71CA-CE02-4965-9B5A-B4020E2FD91C.jpeg.688e729e24bfba4847a76a24ec29cfa2.jpeg

E1103871-26F6-4FB5-A958-1169C01BE883.jpeg.0a0fcd497c0d905c0e1cfb21a4c35caa.jpeg


 

265406CA-09BB-42A0-BBFD-56A3BC30FC9D.jpeg.fcd8250e703b43b4d640b7fcf6199661.jpeg

F8226653-27E9-4B5C-9510-F86E45223091.jpeg.2a778d162643e896954bb8569ea9fd0b.jpeg

Its a lovely place to sit and a really nice car. I just can’t help but think it should have been the new discovery. I had a look under the back of it and at the exhaust, which actually is pretty well tucked in the gap. Take a late classic defender and the exhaust at the back also hangs pretty low!

Overall, I think they’ve done a really nice job. I just feel that they could have done so much more with the styling. The front could have looked more defender, even if it’s just when the lights are on (like the transit custom, I’m sure their lights are the same spacing as a defender), and I have to say the rear is the biggest let down with the lighting and design cues.

If I had the cash, I’d have one in a heartbeat. I’ll always wish that JLR had made the defender more in keeping with the design and use of the old one, much like the wrangler is to the old Willys. But sadly for the size of a manufacturer like JLR, for the given cost of building a car, going away from the utility market they can make so much more money on a car. 

I think the name ‘ Defender ‘ will help sales more than possibly Discovery 5.5?

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Now that quite a few new Defenders are out there being tested and reviewed, does anyone heard of a proper comparison with the previous (Puma) version of the Defender? 

A happy owner of a 2007's version, I'm mostly interested in hearing the opinion of fellow owners. Comparison with other off-road cars are entertaining, but I'd love to see an old Def and a new Def next to each other and going through testing. 

Any leads? 

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I think it's a very strange business model JLR have got themselves into.

Out of interest, I have just gone on Autotrader, selected Land Rover, New, £40k to £50k.

Results= Defender 110, Evoque, Velar, Discovery, Discovery Sport.

Subjectively they all do a very similar job, just differing size and bling levels.

In essence, what I am trying to say is their model range is competing against itself.

 

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On 2/22/2020 at 11:31 AM, FridgeFreezer said:

Also, JLR don't have vast amounts of cash compared to the likes of Toyota or Mercedes, they likely couldn't even begin to compete with a high-volume low-cost utility vehicle produced by the Japanese - remember the likes of Toyota, Nissan, Mitusbishi etc. are spreading R&D for things like axles or engines across everything from fork-lifts to supertankers. JLR are small player, high-value low-volume is where they can compete.

Although their budget must be comparable to what Ineos are doing ? 

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2 hours ago, russianfrog said:

Now that quite a few new Defenders are out there being tested and reviewed, does anyone heard of a proper comparison with the previous (Puma) version of the Defender? 

A happy owner of a 2007's version, I'm mostly interested in hearing the opinion of fellow owners. Comparison with other off-road cars are entertaining, but I'd love to see an old Def and a new Def next to each other and going through testing. 

Any leads? 

Just look for any D3/4 off road comparisons. The new Pretender will likely be very similar in ability, as it is using mostly the same tech and is a similar size. It that or any vids of the current RRS.

 

Overall the new vehicle is likely very capable, but it is big and vulnerable and detached from the outside. It just lacks that native ability of a true off road platform and design. The proper Defender 90 is small, nimble with bodywork and bumpers that rarely get damaged unless you doing something really serious.

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6 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

If I'm honest, I think Mercedes hit the bullseye with the G-Wagen. Even though I think the new one is less cool than the previous variant. It is still hugely distinctive and very desirably from all walks of life. The Wrangler and Jimny are also great examples of hitting the mark too.

I agree but remember that now there are two G wagons available. They never stopped production of the one we all like with the live axles and lockers, they just renamed it the G class professional. They never let the formula get diluted like the defender replacement but they did recognise the need for one with independent suspension.  

All this talk of being a niche low volume manufacturer is nonsense as a justification for building the same vehicle ten different ways. Building a decent range of targeted 4x4's shouldn't be difficult for an entity that has being doing it non stop for 70 years. Same for the Jeep range, Toyota, Suzuki etc. There should be something in the range not actually suitable for soccer moms. I guess an autocratic management with very little effective diversity is at fault and the current field of almost identical offerings reflects their thinking. It must have been incredibly frustrating for some of the engineers there who were pushing the envelope for a more capable vehicle in adverse terrain with an ethos more close to the original. Look at Wrangler sales if you can't see the business model. Tracing the lineage is incredibly important which has been totally lost now.

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I know all the reasons manufacturers like touch screens, but I hate them, unsafe whilst driving and look at the finger marks, that's people with clean hands. You'd have to start using a pen like on an ipad. 

Must admit though I'm warming to it now that i've seen land rovers latest concept. Look like the VW ID van, or those driverless cars that get you to Heathrow airport form the car park. 

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Has anyone met a "normal" person (not a LR enthusiast) that even knows Land Rover released this vehicle?  I have not.  There is no buzz.  Nobody even knows it exists.

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1 hour ago, Red90 said:

Has anyone met a "normal" person (not a LR enthusiast) that even knows Land Rover released this vehicle?  I have not.  There is no buzz.  Nobody even knows it exists.

TBH does anyone care that much these days about any new vehicle? Apart from the odd bit of excitement like the Tesla Truck thing I can't say I've noticed anyone get excited about a new vehicle from any of the major manufacturers for a long time.

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27 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

TBH does anyone care that much these days about any new vehicle? Apart from the odd bit of excitement like the Tesla Truck thing I can't say I've noticed anyone get excited about a new vehicle from any of the major manufacturers for a long time.

Point being.  They are not going to make any improvements in sales volumes with it. Nobody knows or cares that it came out. Sales will plod along to the same people they sold to in the past. They have made claims of increasing sales by ten fold.

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2 hours ago, Red90 said:

Has anyone met a "normal" person (not a LR enthusiast) that even knows Land Rover released this vehicle?  I have not.  There is no buzz.  Nobody even knows it exists.

There isn’t a buzz for any new car these days unless you’re some kind of enthusiast. That said, plenty of non car people have asked me what I think of the new defender. 

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There's no buzz because it's an urban abomination.

Designed to blend in to the homogenised vehicle markets of today.

Looks like a facelifted Skoda Yeti.

Once upon a time Land Rover products were distinctive, they stood out from the crowd and that made them desirable. They were instantly recognisable, the original Range Rover, the Discovery 1-3, the 90/110/130 and even the Freelander.

Now their unique design signatures are lost. They are not what they once were and that's Britains loss and probably Land Rovers .

Perhaps when Tata sell them on it'll be to asset strippers and those eager to sell licenses to any Tom, Dick or Harry who wants to sell worthless tat expensively with Land Rover branding.

Mo

 

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1 hour ago, Mo Murphy said:

.....that's Britain's loss and probably Land Rovers.

How?  It is an Indian company.  It has not been a British company for 26 years.

Edited by Red90

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Because it's identified as British. No one thought it was a German brand when BMW owned it, no one thought it was American when Ford owned it and no one thinks it's Indian because Tata own it.

It's not what it is, its what it's perceived to be.

Harrods, Rolls Royce, Bentley et al, all wave the Union Flag but are owned overseas.

Mo

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3 minutes ago, Mo Murphy said:

No one thought it was a German brand when BMW owned it, no one thought it was American when Ford owned it and no one thinks it's Indian because Tata own it.

I disagree.  It has not been British in my mind for 26 years. Do you think a Mini is British? Your mind is stuck in the past.

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They have Union jack's in the brake lights ....

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1 minute ago, Red90 said:

I disagree.  It has not been British in my mind for 26 years. Do you think a Mini is British? Your mind is stuck in the past.

This line below.

7 minutes ago, Mo Murphy said:

 

It's not what it is, its what it's perceived to be.

Do you understand what I wrote ?

Mo

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If you perceive something to be what it is not, you are brainwashed.

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