What do you think of the 'new' Defender?

[Snagger]

15 hours ago, Eightpot said:

Yours must have one of the last Hi-Lines then?  Same as mine but I have an earlier 200tdi - also has a galvanised bulkhead and most of the steel items, even the shock turrets.  Lovely spec on the car, you wonder why they didn't make a similar model for the UK??  

Then there are the aluminium to steel contact points, the mud traps in the chassis and the shoddy paint.  The paint was a lack of care, but the other elements were design choices to make the car rot out so you’d have to replace it (or buy expensive parts).  The way LR treated customers since the BL take over in the 70s has been atrocious, regardless of company owner.  It’s only because the original designs have such character that there is any loyalty to the marque, but mine is gone - I have no interest in any model other than the leaf and coil sprung stuff, and I suspect I’m not alone in that.  I don’t see the company as related in any way to the one that built my RRC or my SIII.

[JimAttrill]

Yes mine is a Hi-Line.  Although I have removed the stickers on the sides as I didn't like them much.  They were a bugger to get off!  As cars don't rust up here on the highveld anyway it should last a millenium or two with the galvanised chassis and the alloy body.  It will outlast me anyway as I am coming up to 71 now.     

[Escape]

On 9/11/2019 at 10:16 PM, Naks said:

If LR was so good, how come it had to be rescued by the Germans in the 90s? And then they flogged it to the Yanks when they realised that a turd it was, and they in turn couldn't walk away fast enough.

That's not really accurate. LR was doing OK in the 90s, but suffered from the problems faced by British Leyland/ Rover Group as a whole. BMW never had any interest in Land Rover, they wanted the Mini brand and some 4x4 technology to get their X-range launched. It's no secret they did little good for Land Rover...

Ford got the company straight again. But they made a poor decision when in need of cash for their core business when the crisis hit to sell Land Rover along with Jaguar, Aston Martin and Volvo. All brands that have done better than Ford themselves.

[joe1]

And next of course we will hopefully see the Ineos Grenadier as another Defender-contender - built in Bridgend and (uh uh) BMW powered....... Should be interesting

[Peaklander]

 

On 9/16/2019 at 7:39 AM, Escape said:

That's not really accurate. LR was doing OK in the 90s, but suffered from the problems faced by British Leyland/ Rover Group as a whole. BMW never had any interest in Land Rover, they wanted the Mini brand and some 4x4 technology to get their X-range launched. It's no secret they did little good for Land Rover...

Ford got the company straight again. But they made a poor decision when in need of cash for their core business when the crisis hit to sell Land Rover along with Jaguar, Aston Martin and Volvo. All brands that have done better than Ford themselves.

Yes this, and the story of RG in the early 90s (and a little earlier) is that they had a major tie with Honda Motors who owned 10% of Rover Group and RG owned 10% of Honda UK Manufacturing. There had been design collaboration (Triumph Acclaim, Rover 200) and Longbridge made the Honda Concerto, fitting HUM engines to it as well as the 1.6 to the R200 and their own 1.4. Cowley also joined in with the larger Honda engine going in the Rover 800.

The point is that a whole load of learning was underway when, in 1994 the ‘golden share’ that the government had in British Aerospace, owner of the rest of RG, ‘ceased’ and thus RG was allowed to be sold. That’s when BMW bought it.

Things might have turned out differently if Honda has been successful in buying a larger share. They didn’t want to be seen to be taking over the whole company and tried to increase their stake substantially. This didn’t happen as BMW bought the lot and so the sharing by Honda of design, operating methods etc quickly ceased. What this different path might have meant for Land Rover is unknown but it wouldn’t have been bad. 

[Anderzander]

Enter the Honda Crossroad !

[Pappa Smurf]

12 hours ago, joe1 said:

And next of course we will hopefully see the Ineos Grenadier as another Defender-contender - built in Bridgend and (uh uh) BMW powered....... Should be interesting

Won't be the first time a LR was BMW powered.

[Bowie69]

Indeed, got to be one of the better ones to pick from and still gain Euro6/7/8 or whatever it is now.

[Lightning]

You don’t need to spend £40,000

Last week l bought a very nice 2005 TD5 XS SW for £14,500

The chassis is the cleanest l’ve seen on a TD5

lt needed a few bits and pieces (front bumper, drive shafts, rear brakes) which l’ve already done.

lts currently in for the only bodywork it needs, a bit of oxidation on the rear below the windows.

And the rear door has been damaged sometime in the past by someone hitting the spare wheel on something while reversing.

So a new rear door as well.

So a pristine Defender SW with all the XS extras for £16,000

[JimAttrill]

23 hours ago, Pappa Smurf said:

Won't be the first time a LR was BMW powered.

Here in SA they made 2.8 BMW powered Defenders in 90 and 110 chassis.  The 90 tended to be a bit of a handful as the steering and brakes were not up to the speeds it could get to.  The 110 was more controllable.  There was talk at one time that the insurance companies were not going to insure the 90s.  Anyway it all ended when BMW sold LR to Ford. 

[Pappa Smurf]

10 minutes ago, JimAttrill said:

Here in SA they made 2.8 BMW powered Defenders in 90 and 110 chassis.  The 90 tended to be a bit of a handful as the steering and brakes were not up to the speeds it could get to.  The 110 was more controllable.  There was talk at one time that the insurance companies were not going to insure the 90s.  Anyway it all ended when BMW sold LR to Ford. 

The Freelander 1 and P38, L322 Range Rovers also came fitted with BMW Diesels, in Europe anyway, not sure about the rest of the world.

[Pappa Smurf]

12 minutes ago, JimAttrill said:

Here in SA they made 2.8 BMW powered Defenders in 90 and 110 chassis.  The 90 tended to be a bit of a handful as the steering and brakes were not up to the speeds it could get to.  The 110 was more controllable.  There was talk at one time that the insurance companies were not going to insure the 90s.  Anyway it all ended when BMW sold LR to Ford. 

Theres also a Facebook group of dedicated people fitting all sorts of BMW engines into Defenders.

[reb78]

 

2 hours ago, JimAttrill said:

Here in SA they made 2.8 BMW powered Defenders in 90 and 110 chassis.  The 90 tended to be a bit of a handful as the steering and brakes were not up to the speeds it could get to.  The 110 was more controllable.  There was talk at one time that the insurance companies were not going to insure the 90s.  Anyway it all ended when BMW sold LR to Ford. 

I had this engine in a 5 series (great car) - I bet it was brilliant in the 110.

[JimAttrill]

There was a test of a 2.8 110 in one of the UK LR mags.  I have the mags still but finding the test will not be easy!  They really rated it off-road. 

BTW that 2.8 motor is one of Beemers most reliable offerings so long as it is serviced regularly.  I believe the bores are chrome plated etc. 

[Bowie69]

I had the 2.5 version of that engine in a e34 5 series, was excellent, the 2.8 is a stroked 2.5, so should be lovely in a defender.

[smallfry]

On 9/14/2019 at 3:23 PM, Snagger said:

The way LR treated customers since the BL take over in the 70s has been atrocious, regardless of company owner.  It’s only because the original designs have such character that there is any loyalty to the marque, but mine is gone - I have no interest in any model other than the leaf and coil sprung stuff, and I suspect I’m not alone in that.  I don’t see the company as related in any way to the one that built my RRC or my SIII.

Couldn't agree more. 

To me, JLR have become another prestige throwaway car maker.

[Mo Murphy]

^^^^ What Snagger and Smallfry said.

... not to mention their shameless greed in hiking genuine spare parts prices.

 

I hope they go bust. 

Mo

[Snagger]

I wouldn’t wish that on any workforce, but arrogant mismanagement, callous alienation of their most stalwart defenders (pun intended) and apologists, and a poor attitude to quality on the line may certainly bring it about.

[JimAttrill]

On 9/21/2019 at 12:16 AM, Mo Murphy said:

^^^^ What Snagger and Smallfry said.

... not to mention their shameless greed in hiking genuine spare parts prices.

 

I hope they go bust. 

Mo

I discovered that years ago.  I bought 4 genuine Kolbenschmidt pistons for my 300tdi.  They were in 'genuine' boxes.  The Land Rover version had the same pistons but in a Land Rover box and one piston cost the same as all four from my independent parts supplier!  At that time I stopped even checking on 'genuine' parts and their prices.  This was ten or more years ago.  When I worked at an independent LR garage the only thing we bought from LR was the top electrical harness for the injectors.  Not the full harness, but the top bit.  Then we would destroy the oil seal on the head so that any oil going down the wires would leak out down the front of the engine and not go further down the harness to the ECU. 

[Snagger]

I remember about £15 years ago a Hardy Spicer prop UJ cost about £15 while a LR Gen Parts identical part cost £45.  That’s not mark up; it’s stitch up!  I also remember Tata saying just after buying JLR that they would only support older vehicles to the EU statutory minimum time of 10 years, and that no parts for vehicles over that age would be sold.  I think they have a real nerve behaving like that and then bragging about how many of the early vehicles are still in use.

[Chicken Drumstick]

On 9/11/2019 at 9:16 PM, Naks said:

 

There's always been accountants, so what is your point? Hopefully it's not that because they're Indian they're cutting corners/quality?

If LR was so good, how come it had to be rescued by the Germans in the 90s? And then they flogged it to the Yanks when they realised that a turd it was, and they in turn couldn't walk away fast enough. 

At least Tata gave LR a chance when no one would touch them, and it paid off, both for the latter and the former. Sure, there's a bit of a bad patch right now with the losses, but hopefully the booming sales of the new Defender will help to right the ship back to profitability again.

You might want to read up on the history a bit. AROnline is a good resource.

But in summary BAE when they owned Rover sucked it dry and didn't re-invest. The company was actually doing very well, but the revenue & profit wasn't put back into the company. BMW bought Rover for Land Rover and probably Mini. Which they made very good use of to produce their own SUV. You could almost say BMW did a partial asset strip and technology merger before selling to Ford. And it was Ford that ended up in trouble, which resulted in the entire PAG being disbanded. Which was again regardless of how good or bad Land Rover were doing.

[Snagger]

I think you also need to stop virtue signalling, Naks, and look at Indian engineering and manufacturing quality objectively.  It’s dire.

[Mo Murphy]

I thought the wait and the speculation surrounding the new dashboard in 2005/2006 was much more interesting than that which surrounded the new Defender. 

And the result looked better too.

Mo