Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier

[L19MUD]

6 minutes ago, deep said:

I (and quite a few people I know) am sick to death of all the electronic junk and big brother stuff being endlessly chucked into modern vehicles.  If anything, the problem with the Grenadier is that it already has too much of it, not too little!  A strong appeal is that it doesn't have all that fluff fitted.

I see your point but in my mind if you already have ECU's controlling the engine and gearbox and emissions systems etc (which you cannot avoid nowadays) then you may as well have some creature comforts such as auto lights. Auto lights are not going to leave you stranded but an engine in limp home mode possibly will.

I personally am struggling to see the appeal of the Grenadier as a private purchaser. If all you want is something that is rugged and basic without ECU's etc I think you would be a lot better off spending the money on a properly sorted old shape Defender with a galvanised chassis etc and your engine of choice. I accept as a fleet vehicle that is less feasible. 

If you don't mind the ECU's etc then the new Defender seems a much better bet (even if you have to buy a lightly used one to level the price up). The Grenadier is ugly and does not seem to do anything a Defender can't do?

 

 

[L19MUD]

7 minutes ago, Happyoldgit said:

 

Best stick to older stuff then.

Posted whilst I added my post. Same view in a lot less words 😁

[Chicken Drumstick]

1 hour ago, L19MUD said:

I see your point but in my mind if you already have ECU's controlling the engine and gearbox and emissions systems etc (which you cannot avoid nowadays) then you may as well have some creature comforts such as auto lights. Auto lights are not going to leave you stranded but an engine in limp home mode possibly will.

I personally am struggling to see the appeal of the Grenadier as a private purchaser. If all you want is something that is rugged and basic without ECU's etc I think you would be a lot better off spending the money on a properly sorted old shape Defender with a galvanised chassis etc and your engine of choice. I accept as a fleet vehicle that is less feasible. 

If you don't mind the ECU's etc then the new Defender seems a much better bet (even if you have to buy a lightly used one to level the price up). The Grenadier is ugly and does not seem to do anything a Defender can't do?

 

 

Sadly I’m only a dreamer due to lack of funds. But the Grenadier is exactly the sort of thing I’d buy if I had the money. 
 

The new Defender is a fine vehicle in its own way. But they drive like a tall heavy estate car. Because that is essentially what they are nowadays. Nothing wrong with this. It’s what the market wanted. And modern Range Rovers drive the same. Ie being more car like. And dynamically they do handle and ride like a big car. 
 

For me I want a 4x4 to be a 4x4 and feel like it. My short list would include the Jeep Wrangler. But I’d really want a Rubicon. The engine options aren’t great in the U.K. though and there is no options list. Jeep also knobble the tow ratings on some models. 
 

I really like the Ford Bronco too. But no real opportunity to own one in the U.K.  not even sure they are all that feasible to get through an IVA either. But certainly any buying prospect is much more of a challenge. 
 

The other car on my list would be the new Ford Ranger Raptor. Although sadly the EU/U.K. version is missing around 110hp over the one sold anywhere else. But that aside it looks pretty awesome. 
 

The Bronco would probably be the most civilised. The Ranger maybe the most fun. Although roof off options with the Wrangler appeal. But the Grenadier probably the easiest to live with overall and the best all rounder. 
 

I like rugged 4x4’s with real off road capability. I’m quite happy to have ECU’s and some luxury items though. And at these prices for any of them I’d expect them tbh. 
 

A traditional Defender is great. But you’d need an engine swap and do something pretty major with the axles to even get close to the others. And ultimately you’d still end up with something that leaks and rattles. Dynamically the old model would always be a pretty large backwards step. Plus buying and rebuilding with heavy modifications will consume real cash. Much harder to finance such a purchase. 
 

The new Defender is on my list too. But would be in 5th or lower place if I was given the choice. The only real thing is, being in the U.K. they are, or will become quite easily attainable. And they won’t hold their money forever. But I do wonder if I’d always wonder if I’d bought the wrong vehicle. But time will tell. It’s either wait for used prices to drop to my price range. Or swap another engine into my p38a. Which on face value does everything I really want and drives how I want. Just a little fickle and likes a drink!

The Ineos Grenadier would appear to be largely the same kind of vehicle with similar abilities. Hence why I’d say it would be ideal for me. I believe my p38a was £54,000 new in 1999. Which must be well over £100k today if you account for inflation. So maybe the price of the Grenadier isn’t so bad after all. 

[Happyoldgit]

I don't remember any of my new purchase Puma's rattling ...or leaking come to that. Some of my earlier Defender's were veritable sieves though. Depends what you are used to I guess.

[Chicken Drumstick]

Indeed a Puma is the best of the bunch in that regard. I often say to people, they may all look basically the same. But LR made quite a few changes and updates over the years. 
 

I think if I was building/modding and had a reasonable budget I’d probably go for an Ibex though. 

[Naks]

15 hours ago, Anderzander said:

I’ve been trying to find a picture of the exhaust - this is the best I’ve come across ..

Looks to be quite a lot of room there ? 

 

Yikes, on RHD vehicles, the driver's left leg will probably be quite toasty after an 8-hour drive 😶

[Naks]

11 hours ago, L19MUD said:

I see your point but in my mind if you already have ECU's controlling the engine and gearbox and emissions systems etc (which you cannot avoid nowadays) then you may as well have some creature comforts such as auto lights. Auto lights are not going to leave you stranded but an engine in limp home mode possibly will.

I personally am struggling to see the appeal of the Grenadier as a private purchaser. If all you want is something that is rugged and basic without ECU's etc I think you would be a lot better off spending the money on a properly sorted old shape Defender with a galvanised chassis etc and your engine of choice. I accept as a fleet vehicle that is less feasible. 

If you don't mind the ECU's etc then the new Defender seems a much better bet (even if you have to buy a lightly used one to level the price up). The Grenadier is ugly and does not seem to do anything a Defender can't do?

 

Mate, you've got it all wrong: the whole point about an engine limp mode is that it enables to LIMP somewhere and get help without destroying the engine/gearbox/etc. 

[Snagger]

11 hours ago, L19MUD said:

I see your point but in my mind if you already have ECU's controlling the engine and gearbox and emissions systems etc (which you cannot avoid nowadays) then you may as well have some creature comforts such as auto lights. Auto lights are not going to leave you stranded but an engine in limp home mode possibly will.

I personally am struggling to see the appeal of the Grenadier as a private purchaser. If all you want is something that is rugged and basic without ECU's etc I think you would be a lot better off spending the money on a properly sorted old shape Defender with a galvanised chassis etc and your engine of choice. I accept as a fleet vehicle that is less feasible. 

If you don't mind the ECU's etc then the new Defender seems a much better bet (even if you have to buy a lightly used one to level the price up). The Grenadier is ugly and does not seem to do anything a Defender can't do?

 

 

I disagree.  Auto lights is a politely dangerous feature that encourages complacency and results in drivers failing to switch lights on in fog, dust, rain and marginal light conditions.  DRLs are another stupid idea.  Volvo and Saab had it right in the 70s, where the head and tail lamps were on whenever the engine is running.  Simple, reliable and no electronics.  My modern Volvo has auto lights.  We have to keep switching it off after each service as it tends to switch the lights off even when we have selected  them on.  As for automatic wipers, they only work if rain is detected in the right part of the screen, and is it so hard to flick a switch for that?  Electric seat motors?  How often do you need to move the seat?  How often do those systems fail?  RRC and P38 were notorious for it.

Useful comforts and options, depending on location and use, are things like heated glazing and seats, reversing cameras, and at a push, having headlights on a timer activated by the fob so that you can see your path to and from the car at night, though a small torch is better and we all managed for decades without.

[elbekko]

1 hour ago, Snagger said:

As for automatic wipers, they only work if rain is detected in the right part of the screen, and is it so hard to flick a switch for that

Yes.

I remember a particular drive from Belgium to Sweden where we were on the outskirts of a rain storm the whole time. I think I put more wear on the little wiper interval switch in one day than I had in 10 years. I would've killed for automatic wipers that day. And was, in fact, thinking of how I could retrofit them...

My biggest gripe with modern cars are the "safety" systems, that are dangerous as hell. Lane assist that tries to throw you into a snow bank, adaptive cruise that can't be disabled, automatic collision avoidance that's almost guaranteed to get you into an accident at some point, ... Just let me drive the freaking car!

[Daan]

I really like the effort that was put into the Grenadier, It is really a continuation of the rugged off roaders from the good old days. Ineos should be applauded for doing this.

It is easy to criticise, but the task in hand is not easy in today's legislation. I would love to see the SWB arriving on the scene as well, and it is going to be really good once people start modding them with big tyres, winches etc.

I would have one over the new defender, no contest.

Daan 

[L19MUD]

2 hours ago, Naks said:

 

Mate, you've got it all wrong: the whole point about an engine limp mode is that it enables to LIMP somewhere and get help without destroying the engine/gearbox/etc. 

Yes I am fully aware of that. Equally 9 times out of ten when it has happened to me it has been sensor failure not mechanical failure and so the journey has ended due to something that had no bearing on engine condition

[L19MUD]

2 hours ago, Snagger said:

I disagree.  Auto lights is a politely dangerous feature that encourages complacency and results in drivers failing to switch lights on in fog, dust, rain and marginal light conditions.  DRLs are another stupid idea.  Volvo and Saab had it right in the 70s, where the head and tail lamps were on whenever the engine is running.  Simple, reliable and no electronics.  My modern Volvo has auto lights.  We have to keep switching it off after each service as it tends to switch the lights off even when we have selected  them on.  As for automatic wipers, they only work if rain is detected in the right part of the screen, and is it so hard to flick a switch for that?  Electric seat motors?  How often do you need to move the seat?  How often do those systems fail?  RRC and P38 were notorious for it.

Useful comforts and options, depending on location and use, are things like heated glazing and seats, reversing cameras, and at a push, having headlights on a timer activated by the fob so that you can see your path to and from the car at night, though a small torch is better and we all managed for decades without.

I think this thread goes to show that we all have different views on what looks good and what is useful as a feature! Which is why both the Grenadier and the new Defender will both do well

 

In answer to your questions though. Auto lights on all the cars I have owned and driven have worked fine for 99% of the time. In the L322 if the wipers come on twice the lights come on irrespective of lighting conditions, now how many people actually put their lights on when it rains lightly? On every car I have had you can disable on the switch and operate manually.  Auto wipers as Elbekko mentioned are great when the quantity of rain is changing, again perfectly possible to operate manually on every car I have driven with them. Electric seat motors if 2 people drive the car can be moving every single time you get in it as it swaps positions of the seat, mirrors, and steering wheel based on the key you have got in with. Much better than leaving the everything slightly wrong and not being able to operate the vehicle properly? Also easy to disable. The RRC and P38 might but I have never come across a D3/4 or L322 with an electric seat that is not working properly.

I agree with your useful options and have retrofitted 3 of the 4 in my 200tdi Defender

[landroversforever]

15 hours ago, Happyoldgit said:

My better half traded in the practical 3 year old Kuga S Line I bought new for her and got a totally impractical (for our location and circumstances) 5 door Cooper S as she had always fancied one. I'm hardly a giant but I struggle to get in the ruddy thing then struggle to get out of it both as passenger and driver. I have encountered more inconsiderate and downright bullying from other drivers than I have in any other vehicle. I wish she would get rid of the damned thing but no, she loves it.
This is not a press review but an off topic brought to you free of charge courtesy of yours truly 

😁

Do you also find you have to lean forward to look left or right as the B pillars are in the way there too?  It's almost easier to look sideways out of the 2nd row doors for me.

[Snagger]

3 hours ago, elbekko said:

Yes.

I remember a particular drive from Belgium to Sweden where we were on the outskirts of a rain storm the whole time. I think I put more wear on the little wiper interval switch in one day than I had in 10 years. I would've killed for automatic wipers that day. And was, in fact, thinking of how I could retrofit them...

My biggest gripe with modern cars are the "safety" systems, that are dangerous as hell. Lane assist that tries to throw you into a snow bank, adaptive cruise that can't be disabled, automatic collision avoidance that's almost guaranteed to get you into an accident at some point, ... Just let me drive the freaking car!

I had two hire cars this year with lane assist.  I hate it - it can activate when you are taking a peek around a large vehicle in front, deciding whether it is safe to overtake or not, and was frequently activating on the M11 in heavy rain as it was misreading the road surface with very wet conditions.  That was a Ford with a fairly firm tug on the wheel each time it went off, and a few times it was sharp enough to be dangerous.  The trouble is that these “safety features” have to be disabled each time you start the car and are easily forgotten.  At least it was much milder and very infrequent on the Citroen, though I was using that in dry and clear conditions.

[Snagger]

1 hour ago, L19MUD said:

I think this thread goes to show that we all have different views on what looks good and what is useful as a feature! Which is why both the Grenadier and the new Defender will both do well

 

In answer to your questions though. Auto lights on all the cars I have owned and driven have worked fine for 99% of the time. In the L322 if the wipers come on twice the lights come on irrespective of lighting conditions, now how many people actually put their lights on when it rains lightly? On every car I have had you can disable on the switch and operate manually.  Auto wipers as Elbekko mentioned are great when the quantity of rain is changing, again perfectly possible to operate manually on every car I have driven with them. Electric seat motors if 2 people drive the car can be moving every single time you get in it as it swaps positions of the seat, mirrors, and steering wheel based on the key you have got in with. Much better than leaving the everything slightly wrong and not being able to operate the vehicle properly? Also easy to disable. The RRC and P38 might but I have never come across a D3/4 or L322 with an electric seat that is not working properly.

I agree with your useful options and have retrofitted 3 of the 4 in my 200tdi Defender

As I said, I strongly believe that having the lighting connected to the ignition is the answer, not a sensor operated ECU that determines when the lights should be on.  A variable delay wiper relay system like the Smartscreen I installed on my 109 is a great piece of kit, because it allows flexibility but doesn’t take away control from the driver, unlike those godawful automatic systems that sweep when they shouldn’t and sit idle in light rain or drizzle.  And really, drivers being so unable to manually adjust the seat that they are incapable of “operating a car properly” should not be behind the wheel at all.  I have no objection to electric seats as an option, or even as standard but having manual seats as an option, but I (and seemingly many others) hate the things - the driver’s seat in my XC90 is no easier to operate than the manual passenger seat, takes longer to adjust and gets screwed up in the memory if the “wrong” key fob has to be used by the other driver.  Let owners choose, but don’t force electronic gimmicks on owners.

[Chicken Drumstick]

4 hours ago, Snagger said:

I disagree.  Auto lights is a politely dangerous feature that encourages complacency and results in drivers failing to switch lights on in fog, dust, rain and marginal light conditions.  DRLs are another stupid idea.  Volvo and Saab had it right in the 70s, where the head and tail lamps were on whenever the engine is running.  Simple, reliable and no electronics.  My modern Volvo has auto lights.  We have to keep switching it off after each service as it tends to switch the lights off even when we have selected  them on.  As for automatic wipers, they only work if rain is detected in the right part of the screen, and is it so hard to flick a switch for that?  Electric seat motors?  How often do you need to move the seat?  How often do those systems fail?  RRC and P38 were notorious for it.

Useful comforts and options, depending on location and use, are things like heated glazing and seats, reversing cameras, and at a push, having headlights on a timer activated by the fob so that you can see your path to and from the car at night, though a small torch is better and we all managed for decades without.

Electric seats are great. Very often need to move a seat and I find with most manual seats that I want the seat half way between two clicks!

Can't say I've heard of seat motors failing. And I thought with the RRC it was more the switches (usually gummed up rather than completely failed), not the motors.

I agree with auto wipers, never got on with those. Auto headlights, well it wouldn't be a deal breaker either way. But the setup in my Jimny works well, you can either have them full manual. Or so that they come on when dark, a 2nd option than does auto mainbeam too. Which works brilliantly on B roads. But less good on dual carriage ways.

[Chicken Drumstick]

1 hour ago, L19MUD said:

In the L322 if the wipers come on twice the lights come on irrespective of lighting conditions, now how many people actually put their lights on when it rains lightly?

Personally I think that is a bad idea. Lights on in some conditions just cause dazzle to others and make it much harder for them to judge speed and distance. It was a trick used during the war, essentially hiding behind light. It is super easy to demonstrate, get a torch (not too powerful one) shine it in someones face from 5-10 feet away, then hold your hand behind the torch and ask them to tell you how many fingers you are holding up.

In remote places, such as parts of Scandinavia I can see the benefit of DRL or headlights in the old Volvo sense. As you may go hours without seeing another vehicle. But in the UK that just isn't the case and from the Midlands down to the SE on almost any road you'd be lucky to 60 seconds without seeing another vehicle.

[Chicken Drumstick]

25 minutes ago, Snagger said:

As I said, I strongly believe that having the lighting connected to the ignition is the answer, not a sensor operated ECU that determines when the lights should be on. 

Not sure I'd want that, although don't really want DRLs either tbh. There are times when you just don't want any lights on. Although having said all this, isn't this exactly how DRLs work anyway?

[Snagger]

13 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Not sure I'd want that, although don't really want DRLs either tbh. There are times when you just don't want any lights on. Although having said all this, isn't this exactly how DRLs work anyway?

DRLs activate with the ignition if the headlights are off.  But they don’t activate the rear lights and the presence of lighting out the front often tricks drivers at night into thinking they have their lights on, but they have no rear lights, no long range illumination and are dazzling other drivers.  I see it here all the time, even on vehicles with automatic headlights that are confused by bright street lighting.  Far simpler and safer to bin the automation and DRLs and go tho the old system.  I can’t see any occasion that you would need the lights off with the engine running other than charging a flat battery, and that can be mitigated by running the engine a little longer.

[Snagger]

19 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Personally I think that is a bad idea. Lights on in some conditions just cause dazzle to others and make it much harder for them to judge speed and distance. It was a trick used during the war, essentially hiding behind light. It is super easy to demonstrate, get a torch (not too powerful one) shine it in someones face from 5-10 feet away, then hold your hand behind the torch and ask them to tell you how many fingers you are holding up.

In remote places, such as parts of Scandinavia I can see the benefit of DRL or headlights in the old Volvo sense. As you may go hours without seeing another vehicle. But in the UK that just isn't the case and from the Midlands down to the SE on almost any road you'd be lucky to 60 seconds without seeing another vehicle.

I call bocks on that.  Sidelights are useless for anything other than parking, but headlights increase visibility in all conditions other than when silhouetted against a light sky, which is very rare while driving.

[Chicken Drumstick]

2 hours ago, Snagger said:

DRLs activate with the ignition if the headlights are off.  But they don’t activate the rear lights and the presence of lighting out the front often tricks drivers at night into thinking they have their lights on, but they have no rear lights, no long range illumination and are dazzling other drivers.  I see it here all the time, even on vehicles with automatic headlights that are confused by bright street lighting.  Far simpler and safer to bin the automation and DRLs and go tho the old system.  I can’t see any occasion that you would need the lights off with the engine running other than charging a flat battery, and that can be mitigated by running the engine a little longer.

I suspect we are drifting a little OT with this. But there are times when you may want no lights. An obvious example was all Police Volvo's used to have the headlight on in day light disabled. Although not sure what they do with DRLs....

But other times I can think of, which maybe niched. But valid non the less. When over the fields at harvest. You just don't need or want lights. Preserve your night vision, its a big field and lights flying about can be distracting for the combine and tractor drivers. Likewise if just sitting in a car with the engine running, maybe waiting. So could be on a road where parked cars would have their lights off otherwise, so no increased risk of not having them on. Or maybe even when looking for wildlife, lights can be very distracting.

Have also been to a drive in movie where lights are not permitted as they cause issues for others, but you need the ignition and/or engine on to use the radio to listen to the film.

 

2 hours ago, Snagger said:

I call bocks on that.  Sidelights are useless for anything other than parking, but headlights increase visibility in all conditions other than when silhouetted against a light sky, which is very rare while driving.

All I can say is. There is a dodgy by-pass junction near here. The angle you sit it and relative height to oncoming cars means headlights any many DRLs make it very difficult to judge speed and distance. I've seen a lot of close calls and there have been loads of accidents. Not all due to this for sure. But less blinding and dazzling lights in non dark situations would probably be the safer option. If the road is wet and light rain in daylight, the lights also reflect off the ground making it even harder and may obscurer vehicles behind the lead car.

In these instances if everyone used sidelights I'm 100% sure it would be better. And in some cases cars would be more visible with no lights at all. At the end of the day, seeing a car 2 miles away isn't all that useful. Its the ones much closer you need to be concerned with.

[jeremy996]

Another review, this time from Drive Arabia (UAE), Drive Arabia Ineos Grenadier Review

And this one from New Zealand, Driven New Zealand Ineos Grenadier Review. The light blue with a white roof seems to be a hit.

Edited February 10, 2023 by jeremy996
Adding more stuff

[Snagger]

I disagree with just about everything you said., CD.It may have been disabled from UK police cars, or some of them, to comply with a literal interpreter of the then contemporary C&U regs; we know how the authorities are seldom practical and usually unimaginatively literal in their interpretation of rules.  As for the benefits of sidelights over headlights in poor weather, if you find properly adjusted headlights blinding, you have a vision issue that may preclude you from driving in certain conditions.  Maladjusted lamps, main beam and so on, yes.  Dipped beam, no.  But sidelights are useless for getting attention and just blend in to the background.  If this wasn’t all the case, the Swedes wouldn’t have taken the path they did in the 60s or 70s and bikers would be instructed to avoid the use of their headlamps, which is significantly higher up than any cars’.

[elbekko]

18 minutes ago, Snagger said:

If this wasn’t all the case, the Swedes wouldn’t have taken the path they did in the 60s or 70s and bikers would be instructed to avoid the use of their headlamps, which is significantly higher up than any cars’.

DRLs are ok for Swedish law, for the record. Doesn't need to be headlights anymore.

I put brighter bulbs into my sidelights so I could use them as DRLs. Actually noticeably reduces the invisibility cloak my P38 seems to come with.

[deep]

23 hours ago, Happyoldgit said:

 

Best stick to older stuff then.

You should look around.  They don't make older stuff any more.  We are discussing new vehicles...