Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier

[Chicken Drumstick]

12 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

The Smart plant's quality was not that great, although that was probably more reflective of the Smart's design than the quality of the plant or the staff. Designing a vehicle to to "built right first time" is quite hard and I'm not sure many western manufacturers do it very well. By reputation, Sunderland's Nissan plant has the highest first time build quality.

The tone of the video suggests the Grenadier is going to be close to a half-price G-Wagen.

I had a ForTwo new in 2017, did 52,000 miles in it. Not a single issue. Can't fault the quality from a personal point of view.

Wouldn't half the price of a G-Wagen still mean about £70k? I can't see them pitching at this price point, at least not for the base starting price. I would assume their target market is the well specced pickups and things like the Commercial Land Cruiser. Which would be £35-50k depending on exact spec.

[Retroanaconda]

Yes, the video a few months back had their head of sales (or similar) saying they were pitching it around £35k starting price for commercials - not sure if that includes the VAT or not though.

It looks good from a technical perspective, but they’ve got to do something about that hideous bumper and grille!

[Bowie69]

45 minutes ago, Retroanaconda said:

they’ve got to do something about that hideous bumper and grille

Cue an aftermarket kit making it look *exactly* like a Defender.

Tbh, particularly in black, it doesn't grate with me much.

[landroversforever]

I reckon it looks loads better when it matches the body.

[roamingyak]

2 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

Cue an aftermarket kit making it look *exactly* like a Defender.

Tbh, particularly in black, it doesn't grate with me much.

Looks like a Land Cruiser front bumper. Imagine its to do with impact assessments, you may not get away with replacing a crumple plastic bumper with a solid metal one like a Defender etc?

[jeremy996]

3 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

I had a ForTwo new in 2017, did 52,000 miles in it. Not a single issue. Can't fault the quality from a personal point of view.

Wouldn't half the price of a G-Wagen still mean about £70k? I can't see them pitching at this price point, at least not for the base starting price. I would assume their target market is the well specced pickups and things like the Commercial Land Cruiser. Which would be £35-50k depending on exact spec.

I know a few people with Smarts and they only had issues with leaks and squeaks. 

OTR for a G-Wagen is now £101,495!

The best lead on price so far is the Grenadier Unfiltered video 1, 28/09/2020, with Mark Tennant, the commerical director who said a bare one for fleet use would be £40k +VAT, with shiny retail ones around £45k+VAT. These "Unfiltered" videos are not indexed on YouTube, so I've relinked it here. 

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by jeremy996
a missing "k" made it £45 + VAT. Even a Tonka one would be more than that!

[Bowie69]

1 hour ago, roamingyak said:

Looks like a Land Cruiser front bumper. Imagine its to do with impact assessments, you may not get away with replacing a crumple plastic bumper with a solid metal one like a Defender etc?

I suspect you would, otherwise the same would apply to later discos etc, or as you say new model LCs that you can even spec with a proper roo bar in Oz.

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

33 minutes ago, jeremy996 said:

I know a few people with Smarts and they only had issues with leaks and squeaks. 

OTR for a G-Wagen is now £101,495!

The best lead on price so far is the Grenadier Unfiltered video 1, 28/09/2020, with Mark Tennant, the commerical director who said a bare one for fleet use would be £40k +VAT, with shiny retail ones around £45k+VAT. These "Unfiltered" videos are not indexed on YouTube, so I've relinked it here. 

 

Thanks for the vid link.

Re: Smarts, I think that was true of earlier models. I've also had a Smart Roadster. But the current 453 gen doesn't suffer leaks that I'm aware of. At least nothing on the forums about it when I was on them and mine lived out 24/7.

[Badger110]

Well that's me off the list of potential buyers 

[Stellaghost]

33 minutes ago, Badger110 said:

Well that's me off the list of potential buyers 

What can I say !! At least you got on the bloody list lol regards Stephen

[deep]

22 hours ago, landroversforever said:

Mate of mine had a ranger with the extended cab.... tiny flip down seats if you really needed to put a couple of people there. Mostly it was just a great place for either the dog or chainsaws etc.

I rented one of those to do a little trip through Death Valley and around the Grand Canyon in the U.S.A., a few years back now.  I was struck by how genuinely useful it was.

Elsewhere, we are back to price discussions.  I just don't understand how people think a specialised, almost bespoke vehicle like a Grenadier isn't going to be considerably more expensive than a stamped-out clone from a mega factory.  That's not being realistic.

And the boat-prow front end?  A million times better than the bulbous, ultra-vulnerable monstrosity on the new Defender.  It will certainly be easier to customise.

[Badger110]

14 minutes ago, deep said:

 

Elsewhere, we are back to price discussions.  I just don't understand how people think a specialised, almost bespoke vehicle like a Grenadier isn't going to be considerably more expensive than a stamped-out clone from a mega factory.  That's not being realistic.

 

A 110 from the factory in basic form was costing £29k at the end of the run, a Grenadier is costing £50k, that's alot more for something that maybe bespoke, but hasn't reinvented the wheel don't you think?

 It'll be great i'm sure, but there's not many people who can afford such a vehicle which if i'm honest, doesn't do much that plenty of other vehicles in this market do already.

 

[Anderzander]

I think an XS 110 in 2016 was £33k  - with inflation that would be nearly £37k, and they say £45k for the Grenadier- so it’s more, but not insanely more.

Those special editions - like the Autobiography were over £60k ... but I take the point that a basic 90 then was still only about £23k.

[Chicken Drumstick]

43 minutes ago, Badger110 said:

A 110 from the factory in basic form was costing £29k at the end of the run, a Grenadier is costing £50k, that's alot more for something that maybe bespoke, but hasn't reinvented the wheel don't you think?

 It'll be great i'm sure, but there's not many people who can afford such a vehicle which if i'm honest, doesn't do much that plenty of other vehicles in this market do already.

 

But we don’t know it will be £50k. Where are you getting the price from?

On a similar note. What can you buy today for £29k that would be either comparable to a Defender or a Grenadier?

Remember the Grenadier is coming with a punchy motor. Not some wheezy Transit engine. And is looking to me much higher spec than a Defender ever was too. 
 

If you go on the Toyota website and price up a Land Cruiser Commercial I think you might be surprised at the price. Or likewise something like a Wildtrack Ford Ranger. 

[Retroanaconda]

I presume the £50k came from the video - i.e. £40k plus vat so £48k.

A new 110 commercial starts at £43k plus vat. It will be interesting to see what the Grenadier comes in at. 

[Badger110]

1 hour ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

But we don’t know it will be £50k. Where are you getting the price from?

On a similar note. What can you buy today for £29k that would be either comparable to a Defender or a Grenadier?

Remember the Grenadier is coming with a punchy motor. Not some wheezy Transit engine. And is looking to me much higher spec than a Defender ever was too. 
 

If you go on the Toyota website and price up a Land Cruiser Commercial I think you might be surprised at the price. Or likewise something like a Wildtrack Ford Ranger. 

At the beginning of the video, around £40k for a commercial variant ( +Vat ) and £45k ( he didn’t say it was +Vat but i can’t see it not being ). These are speculated figures at the moment based on current trends 

 

I figured it would be a base price of about £30k which puts it in a price range for an average joe like me to consider, but I don’t produce cars and only go on what I see available .

 

As Deep said, it’s a bespoke vehicle and I see an interesting idea here but it’s being priced outside my means and as someone who would love to carry on using a defender/ grenadier type vehicle,  I don’t think I’d be alone in being put off by the base price.

 

 

[Anderzander]

With it all being galvanised there is a chance they will keep their value into the 2nd hand market*. They look like they’ll be highly repairable too. 

edit* Mind you rust doesn’t seem to be much of an issue on modern bodywork with the coating processes they use nowadays.

[Chicken Drumstick]

11 hours ago, Badger110 said:

At the beginning of the video, around £40k for a commercial variant ( +Vat ) and £45k ( he didn’t say it was +Vat but i can’t see it not being ). These are speculated figures at the moment based on current trends 

 

I figured it would be a base price of about £30k which puts it in a price range for an average joe like me to consider, but I don’t produce cars and only go on what I see available .

 

As Deep said, it’s a bespoke vehicle and I see an interesting idea here but it’s being priced outside my means and as someone who would love to carry on using a defender/ grenadier type vehicle,  I don’t think I’d be alone in being put off by the base price.

 

 

Don't get me wrong. It is priced outside my means too!

But I'm just looking at what else is on the market that I suspect the Grenadier will be pitched against.

[Anderzander]

Is that OTR price including VAT or are they assuming that as a commercial it will be without ? 

[Chicken Drumstick]

Not sure tbh I didn't check, I'd assume with. Although I'd say the Grenadier appears to be of higher spec and capability than the LC. Which might be enough to demand a premium.

Taking a look at the Ranger Wildtrack, with an automatic and rear load box (to match the Grenadier in basic spec). Prices are in the £40k bracket. I honestly have no idea what prices Ineos will announce. I guess they need to make profit and will depend on how many/easy they think they will sell. And I guess how many utility use vs lifestyle. As the latter (lifestyle) can normally be sold for more. I'd be surprised if they are pitching against the new Defender or G-Wagen. As that isn't the market the old Defender targeted. And everything so far has been about replacing the traditional Defender. That said, I guess they may also offer more basic models in due course too. Just not at launch, this might even be intentional, knowing there will be some very eager people happy to pay a premium to get one of these first.

[Anderzander]

I would think inheriting that factory will have taken either time, cost or both out of their manufacturing effort - and they may be in a position to pass those on in the end sale price? 

[Chicken Drumstick]

Just watched the insights video above. He says "a little under forty thousand pounds commercial" and "mid forties retail".

£37-38k + VAT would make approx £44-45k inc VAT. Certainly LC/Wildtrack ballpark figures. And no mention of how many models or specs yet. I assume if it sells well during the first 12 months, they may introduce a lower base spec model and maybe a higher spec one too. So maybe pricing in the region of £33-48k??

I'm guessing. But being hopeful

[deep]

22 hours ago, Badger110 said:

A 110 from the factory in basic form was costing £29k at the end of the run, a Grenadier is costing £50k, that's alot more for something that maybe bespoke, but hasn't reinvented the wheel don't you think?

 It'll be great i'm sure, but there's not many people who can afford such a vehicle which if i'm honest, doesn't do much that plenty of other vehicles in this market do already.

 

You can be pretty sure the Defenders, at the end of production, were not generating any sort of profit.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a major motivation for the complete re-design was to cut production costs (as well as allowing more consistent build and refinement).

[landroversforever]

37 minutes ago, deep said:

You can be pretty sure the Defenders, at the end of production, were not generating any sort of profit.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a major motivation for the complete re-design was to cut production costs (as well as allowing more consistent build and refinement).

That's the exact reason. They claimed it was down to emissions/safety etc. But when you looked across the defender line with 2-3 people per station.... then the RR line (higher price, bigger margins) had 2-3 blokes looking after several robotic stations. 

[reb78]

On 2/17/2021 at 10:00 AM, Mo Murphy said:

Too expensive to be a realistic new purchase for most of us then.

Mo

It was heading that way Mo. It might suit the HP crowd... I think the days of actually owning a car are nearly over... I am very much the odd one out these days.