landroversforever Posted December 31, 2023 Share Posted December 31, 2023 35 minutes ago, Shep The Disco said: The builders and farmers want a 3 year plan then chop in for a new one so yes they are great on paper with regards to build quality but is it something that will sell.... It’s only 3 years because that’s how a lot of finance is split, and often warranty too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shep The Disco Posted December 31, 2023 Share Posted December 31, 2023 (edited) 39 minutes ago, landroversforever said: It’s only 3 years because that’s how a lot of finance is split, and often warranty too. No it's 3 years here because the vehicles are end of life at over 200k miles... Some go back at 18 months due to high mileage and worn out. Can a grenadier cope with that and at what cost? Edited December 31, 2023 by Shep The Disco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted December 31, 2023 Share Posted December 31, 2023 4 minutes ago, Shep The Disco said: No it's 3 years here because the vehicles are end of life at over 200k miles... Some go back at 18 months due to high mileage and worn out. Can a grenadier cope with that and at what cost? Exactly, so they’ve only been built for that warranty period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shep The Disco Posted December 31, 2023 Share Posted December 31, 2023 (edited) 49 minutes ago, landroversforever said: Exactly, so they’ve only been built for that warranty period. Do you really believe a grenadier will go beyond 200k miles Which by the way is double the warranty distance for a Toyota and be worth the money? If a Toyota does double the warranty distance then what would be the expectation of a grenider on that basis;? Edited December 31, 2023 by Shep The Disco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy996 Posted December 31, 2023 Share Posted December 31, 2023 Most manufacturers build so that the vehicle will last the warrant period and "devil take the hindmost" for second owners in the later years, that is why long warranties are unusual and noteworthy where they occur. Ford are shockers for this and this is evidenced each time they buy and sell a brand, like LR and Mazda. Their beancounters take a long and hard look at each model and try and squeeze the pennies out of the vehicle build. For Mazda, there is a well documented bit of de-contenting where they replaced the real gauges on the MX5 with basic go/no-go senders and gauges for temperature and oil pressure. I understand the saving was about $5 a car and only the motoring nerds were really bothered, (like me and the MX5OC, you can buy a kit in the after market for the original senders and gauges). For the Disco in Ford's ownership, they changed the alternator for one which was less robust and more sensitive to over-tight belts and higher mileage; the failures were felt by the second and subsequent owners, as the substitution, (usually), lasted the warranty. Different warranty conditions between private buyers and commercial buyers are also common, so Ineos Automotive's warranty is an indication of the design parameters or a massive economic risk! The NSU Ro80 broke NSU/Auto Union and helped build VAG; so Ineos must have confidence in the robustness of the product. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shep The Disco Posted December 31, 2023 Share Posted December 31, 2023 (edited) I'll go with grenadier taking a massive economical risk on warranty. But hey time will tell IF they put it out for commercial consumption..... Edited December 31, 2023 by Shep The Disco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurbie Posted December 31, 2023 Share Posted December 31, 2023 2 hours ago, Shep The Disco said: I'll go with grenadier taking a massive economical risk on warranty. or you have faith in what you build .... kia has a 7 years warranty ! (3 years unlimited mile's , 7 years with a max of 150.000 KM) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shep The Disco Posted December 31, 2023 Share Posted December 31, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, hurbie said: or you have faith in what you build .... kia has a 7 years warranty ! (3 years unlimited mile's , 7 years with a max of 150.000 KM) Yep so if a Toyota does double the warranty miles at 200k miles in 3 years and gets sold on because of this what will a grenadier do and is it going to be value for money when you can just get a large manufacturer to supply a vehicle much cheaper that definitely goes on and on... I think ineos either have a very good vehicle or they are taking a huge risk... Edited December 31, 2023 by Shep The Disco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deep Posted December 31, 2023 Share Posted December 31, 2023 (edited) 21 hours ago, Anderzander said: This is quite a strange conversation ! I’m 52, debt free, can’t afford a Ferrari - but then I’ve worked 32 hours over 4 days for the last 20 years. I value the time more. Which is actually the calculation I did when I decided I coveted a Grenadier - I do really like them, in fact I can’t think of any other new car I’d buy but that one…. but I want the money to go into retiring early - and I still love my Land Rovers. Strange conversation indeed - Shep the Disco against the world! Though, to be fair, he probably doesn't get to see much outside his own, very busy world. I'm 62 and debt-free. I also value my time. In fact, in my whole life, I've only worked full time for 15 years, which was about 14 years too long. Despite that, I have been fortunate a few times when I have bought properties in a low market and sold them in a better market, when I've been otherwise pretty skint. I could have afforded a Grenadier a few months ago but made wiser decisions around setting up my few acres here (plus I haven't worked for money since June!). As things stand, the Grenadier would be my pick of a new vehicle, in theory. However, when the next lot of money comes in, I think I'd be sorely tempted to give away a lot of capability but save a swag of money and make do with a Ford Everest (and probably a second hand, older tech version at that). Or even get something much older and get it fully rebuilt. Hmm. Either way, it won't be a pickup truck. I absolutely can't stand much of the modern technology which has taken all the fun out of new cars. Ironically, I think the Grenadier stands pretty much alone in pushing as much of that technology as possible into the cupboard under the stairs. Between that and the solid, pragmatic design, it sure is appealing. Edited December 31, 2023 by deep senility 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shep The Disco Posted December 31, 2023 Share Posted December 31, 2023 Somebody has to question why the minions just go along with stuff like this. From experience I find that mostly the cheaper option of vehicles tend to be better for work, especially in this situation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted December 31, 2023 Share Posted December 31, 2023 I have a friend who used to buy for the utility companies - none of them (I.e the workers) wanted to get rid of their Defenders - even though the commercial people were telling them there were better, cheaper vehicles - with better warranties… and they kept them for years and years. I think the 3 year thing is not just because of finance and warranty - it’s because the vehicles do become worn out and aren’t that repairable. The Grenadier could get back into that - if it’s reliable, configurable, has the warranty - and is long lived then the total cost of ownership alone might justify it - putting aside the other definitions of value that might work in its favour. Good luck to ‘em I say 😊 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted December 31, 2023 Share Posted December 31, 2023 4 hours ago, deep said: I absolutely can't stand much of the modern technology which has taken all the fun out of new cars. Ironically, I think the Grenadier stands pretty much alone in pushing as much of that technology as possible into the cupboard under the stairs. Between that and the solid, pragmatic design, it sure is appealing. It’s not as technology-free as the marketing would have us believe. Until the recent software update fixed them were people with heater issues (no temperature or direction control etc.) as that’s also all controlled by the cars ECUs - not standalone circuits or physical levers/flaps. It’s just the way all modern vehicles seem to be built. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shep The Disco Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 9 hours ago, Retroanaconda said: It’s not as technology-free as the marketing would have us believe. Until the recent software update fixed them were people with heater issues (no temperature or direction control etc.) as that’s also all controlled by the cars ECUs - not standalone circuits or physical levers/flaps. It’s just the way all modern vehicles seem to be built. This is kind of my point really. National grid survived on defender for donkeys years as we could just get stuck in once a week and maintain them. Now a day's we just don't bother,drive the vehicles double the distance of the warranty then they go out for public consumption. If grenadier think they can beat this then it needs to be built in a different way...back when girders were used.. They are taking a huge risk to warranty these vehicles in my opinion and personally I will stick with the cheap stuff for work as that's the best and cheapest way of making money out of such things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forkrentfitter Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 On 12/31/2023 at 11:54 AM, Shep The Disco said: No it's 3 years here because the vehicles are end of life at over 200k miles... Some go back at 18 months due to high mileage and worn out. Can a grenadier cope with that and at what cost? the sum of the parts make the product, as an example do you have any experience to speak of with the bmw engine and zf transmission? my son recently had a bmw 535d with just shy of 300000 miles on the clock, original engine and transmission, was still capable of anything asked of it. i guess you know better than the people putting up the money to build the grenadier. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shep The Disco Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 (edited) A 535d sits on the road... A grenadier is designed to go off road so that's not really a good comparison. It's pitched against the utility market which is going to be a hard task . Yes the engines may be good but so is a Toyota lump , can it beat that and do double the warranty period for the chassis and running gear is the question and with the price of the competition it's not looking good . Toyota and Isuzu are definitely a way ahead for the time being.. I must stop start 20 times a day, on off onoff . Fast slow fast slow... Bash off road. ....Fast,... Stop start...etc etc A high mile motorway car doesn't do that either. Edited January 1 by Shep The Disco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post forkrentfitter Posted January 1 Popular Post Share Posted January 1 clearly no point trying to reason with you. isuzu have had their share of carp engines over the years, as have toyota with cylender head issues and chassis and body rot. i have worked as a heavy plant fitter for 40 plus years, japenese pick ups are not the be all and end all. 5 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Snagger Posted January 2 Popular Post Share Posted January 2 18 hours ago, forkrentfitter said: clearly no point trying to reason with you. isuzu have had their share of carp engines over the years, as have toyota with cylender head issues and chassis and body rot. i have worked as a heavy plant fitter for 40 plus years, japenese pick ups are not the be all and end all. Every post on any topic has had the same loud Facebook idiot group BS-er tone, and he’s trying to import the hostile attitude to this site. 5 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deep Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 You have to wonder why someone who clearly has no time (and maybe not the cash either) for the Grenadier would even be on this page? The thread has been interesting until the rather pointless, borderline ranting started. Hopefully it will get interesting again soon! Any spy photos of a short wheel base version? 😇 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy996 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Mass consumption is an economic dead end. Unlimited expansion of consumerist policies is the direct cause of global warming, species depletion, loss of habitat etc. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle taken to the logical conclusion, assuming you don't want to go back to the Middle Ages, is buy the best stuff you can afford once and maintain it. Most of the Grenadier specification drift is down to global safety regulations and the marketing requirements so they can sell them across segments. Regulation, economics and marketing drives all manufacturing and everything represents a compromise somewhere. Compared to a FFRR, its a tractor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shep The Disco Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) 32 minutes ago, jeremy996 said: Mass consumption is an economic dead end. Unlimited expansion of consumerist policies is the direct cause of global warming, species depletion, loss of habitat etc. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle taken to the logical conclusion, assuming you don't want to go back to the Middle Ages, is buy the best stuff you can afford once and maintain it. Most of the Grenadier specification drift is down to global safety regulations and the marketing requirements so they can sell them across segments. Regulation, economics and marketing drives all manufacturing and everything represents a compromise somewhere. Compared to a FFRR, its a tractor! Yes mass consumption is an economic dead end. Try explaining that to the people that fund the company's vehicles because that is you. If a head of cauliflower was £3.50 not 95p would you consider that worthwhile so that the production crew can drive reusable vehicles? Edited January 2 by Shep The Disco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy996 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 No, a cauliflower is a consumable, not a capital asset. The vehicle would be durable not reusable. "It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than speak up and remove all doubt." Mark Twain, apparently. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinkfloyd Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Shep The Disco said: Yes mass consumption is an economic dead end. Try explaining that to the people that fund the company's vehicles because that is you. If a head of cauliflower was £3.50 not 95p would you consider that worthwhile so that the production crew can drive reusable vehicles? Just for info, they wouldn't just replace a fleet with grenadiers but they will look at return on investment and if spending the extra 10-20k gets them a substantially longer service life from their vehicles then the ROI would be such that it would become a positive investment. If ineos offer an attractive warranty (say 5 years) on all uses and the option of an extended warranty to 10 years, a lot of companies would seriously consider them as a contender when replacing vehicles because in all likelihood the vehicle will still be worth £15-20k after the decade of use and will probably be a good deal for them. Especially when factoring repair costs in with the likes of hiluxes and L200's which just aren't in the same league. Quarries for example still use almost exclusively defenders (200/300tdi's).. imagine the return on investment there? The environment is such that outside of the grenadier, there is nothing to replace them with! Given the number of quarries worldwide, there is a lucrative market just in that one industry alone! Edited January 2 by Stinkfloyd 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinkfloyd Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) 8 minutes ago, jeremy996 said: No, a cauliflower is a consumable, not a capital asset. The vehicle would be durable not reusable. "It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than speak up and remove all doubt." Mark Twain, apparently. Just looking at your profile pick Jeremy, do you by chance own a Grenadier? If so, I'm very jealous! (Also, I have not read miles back on the chat so appreciate I am probably asking something that has already been stated 😂) If so, how does it drive compared to the old defender? Edited January 2 by Stinkfloyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy996 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 25 minutes ago, Stinkfloyd said: Just looking at your profile pick Jeremy, do you by chance own a Grenadier? If so, I'm very jealous! (Also, I have not read miles back on the chat so appreciate I am probably asking something that has already been stated 😂) If so, how does it drive compared to the old defender? Yes, I have, collected 22/04/2023 and I've done 14,500+ miles so far. There is a Members Vehicles thread that covers my experiences and issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinkfloyd Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 4 minutes ago, jeremy996 said: Yes, I have, collected 22/04/2023 and I've done 14,500+ miles so far. There is a Members Vehicles thread that covers my experiences and issues. And there is my evenings reading 😁 Looks a cracker of a motor! A belated congrats! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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