Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier

[landroversforever]

18 minutes ago, ThreePointFive said:

I have to wonder how these stack up against the usual pickups in terms of fleet costs. With those, you can dispose of them by the time their first service is due when they cost so little to buy and the residuals are so low (a slight exaggeration, maybe).

There's a reason RNLI use the L200, nothing to do with off road ability when it gets covered in salt every day. 

These will have to reach a longer service life to 'pay back' the purchase cost and that takes actual maintenance.

I don't doubt they're capable of a long life, but curious to know how the numbers work when your starting point is almost twice that of other vehicles.

It will be interesting to see what happens now the L200 isn't available any longer. 

[ThreePointFive]

Let's hope it is a move towards more sustainable purchase of vehicles built to be less disposable. 

[Chicken Drumstick]

22 minutes ago, ThreePointFive said:

I have to wonder how these stack up against the usual pickups in terms of fleet costs. With those, you can dispose of them by the time their first service is due when they cost so little to buy and the residuals are so low (a slight exaggeration, maybe).

There's a reason RNLI use the L200, nothing to do with off road ability when it gets covered in salt every day. 

These will have to reach a longer service life to 'pay back' the purchase cost and that takes actual maintenance.

I don't doubt they're capable of a long life, but curious to know how the numbers work when your starting point is almost twice that of other vehicles.

Would it not also depend on how something is being purchased? I'd guess quite a lot might be leased or on some kind of business HP/PCP scheme. In which case it is only really about the monthly costs. Also worth noting that while the initial outlay might be more, the resale value is also likely to be higher too. For a business I imagine the total costs may not be all that difference, despite the retail price a private punter would have to fork out.

I'd also assume that list price may also mean little for businesses needing such vehicles. In the grand scheme of things. Even for charities. A quick Google for RNLI:

Income / Expenditure	31/12/2018	31/12/2022
Total gross income	£192.21m	£231.80m
Total expenditure	£192.06m	£233.00m

 

Some pretty big figures. And as a charity I guess they need to spend all they get.... But with figures like this Does a £45-53k pick-up really make any difference over one costing £65-75k? Even if they bought 10 or 20 of them (to which I'd assume they would then get a good discount anyway).

 

[mickeyw]

I think a lot of rescue organisations do tend to hang onto vehicles for longer than many users, possibly because they are quite customised units, and/or maybe they don't rack up the miles that quickly. I know my local St John's Ambulance branch still has a 1989 V8 110 on the fleet, and it was only 10 years or so since I used to see a Gatwick airport fire service 200 Tdi Discovery our local Tesco.

[mickeyw]

28 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

It will be interesting to see what happens now the L200 isn't available any longer. 

They seem to have partnered up with Ford now and use the Ranger on the beaches.

[hurbie]

i wonder if this will come to europe : a really cheap toyota ....

https://www.google.com/search?q=toyota+imvo&oq=toyota+imvo&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCwgAEEUYExg5GIAEqAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:eb9845e0,vid:lGfiBKuQoGo,st:0

[Happyoldgit]

I wouldn't be too snooty about current 4x4 pickups, they are popular for valid reasons. My gut feeling is that big users like utilities will continue to use them en masse from the big manufacturers [rather like the Power Network Ranger cherry picker that turned up at the farm when we had problems last week] perhaps subbed by a few Grenadiers [but to do what?] Charities are something else entirely.

My gut feeling is Grenadiers will continue to be a bit niche, certainly expensive and as a result will not be adopted by fleet users to the same degree that Defenders were, not while 4x4 pickups are available from the big makers with big parts and repair facilities.

As an aside, if my last brand new Defender had been as reliable as the 3.2 auto Ranger it was replaced with or my current D Max I would have held onto the Defender. In fact all the Defenders I bought new spent more time back and forth undergoing warranty work than either of these so called cheap pickups  [cheap at over 30k - hmmm].

[geoffbeaumont]

2 hours ago, Happyoldgit said:

I wouldn't be too snooty about current 4x4 pickups

I, at least, wasn't knocking the pickups. They can't get some of the places a Defender or, presumably, a Grenadier can get - but they'll get to a lot of places an ordinary van won't and they're quite capable of filling many of the roles done by Defenders in the past. As well as others Defenders were never good for.

[Anderzander]

17 hours ago, mickeyw said:

I think a lot of rescue organisations do tend to hang onto vehicles for longer than many users, possibly because they are quite customised units, and/or maybe they don't rack up the miles that quickly. I know my local St John's Ambulance branch still has a 1989 V8 110 on the fleet, and it was only 10 years or so since I used to see a Gatwick airport fire service 200 Tdi Discovery our local Tesco.

The mountain rescues around me still have their defenders - one of them has just has their 110 put on a galvanised chassis. 
 

My assumption is because there hasn’t been anything that does what they want it to, or it’s better long term value for them to have vehicles they can repair and keep going, and / or their fleet guy just loves them ? 
 

Very small market - but I could easily see them running Grenadiers.

[simonr]

18 hours ago, hurbie said:

i wonder if this will come to europe : a really cheap toyota ....

https://www.google.com/search?q=toyota+imvo&oq=toyota+imvo&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCwgAEEUYExg5GIAEqAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:eb9845e0,vid:lGfiBKuQoGo,st:0

I like the look of that.

Hopefully, now Land Rover have moved out of the utility market, there will be space for other manufacturers to bring more interesting options to Europe & hopefully the UK.

[ThreePointFive]

On 11/24/2023 at 5:42 PM, Happyoldgit said:

I wouldn't be too snooty about current 4x4 pickups, they are popular for valid reasons.

I agree, they offer a package at a price that very few vehicles can compete with. It's the comparison between ~£30k and £75k that I was trying to draw out more than the pickups being bad value.

[Chicken Drumstick]

Eventually got to see and drive the Grenadier today. Our local dealer let us down cancelling on the last booked test drive. But I received an email from Ineos inviting me for a driving experience in Surry.

Bit of a wet grey day, but that aside it was a good event. A bit like a Land Rover experience event, albeit a bit shorter and less seat time.

We did a circa 25 min road drive first in a Field Master diesel:

Then a vehicle swap to a diesel Trial Master for the off road drive:

As you can see it was quite muddy out today:

Sadly their off road course had been flooded so we were restricted to driving some tracks round the estate and a man made hump section to see the approach/departure/breakover angles. They did say they would invite us again when they return to site to be able to try the full off road course.

They also had the Quartermaster prototype we could have a poke around:

The Quartermaster looks BIG compared to the regular model. 127" wheelbase I believe, so I guess similar to a Defender (proper one) 127/130, but looked more aimed at competing in the US/Asia markets with the Jeep Gladiator.

 

Sadly no commercial specs there, they were all Station Wagons. Apparently the ones used in the big press drive up in Scotland and with some examples having over 14,000 miles on now. Many done off road.

 

They even gave us a super tasty pork belly and venison ragu lunch, which is far more than we ever got at Land Rover.

 

So what did I think?

 

Well, there were only two things I wasn't so keen on, so lets get them out of the way first.

 

1. The auto gearbox on road. It had the same dimwitted feel pulling away from the line, a big pause, then if you apply a bit more throttle, way too much. It seems to be a common trend on many modern cars and diesels. The D240 First Edition Defender was equally awful here. Going to WOT the kick down also seemed hugely sluggish, like all other examples of the ZF-8 speed I've driven. If you only use part throttle it is ok, but wide open throttle and it needs a nap before it decides what to do. So far at odds from my p38a 4.6 Range Rover which is super crisp on kick down at WOT.

2. The posh leather seats. The look and feel nice and below my shoulders where very comfy. But I was very uncomfortable.

 

This trapezoid bit with the Grenadier name on was very uncomfortable on my upper back between the shoulder blades. Bit like sitting in a seat when you have a big padded hood on your coat:

 

I am quite short and do have a dodgy back. So suspect it is probably fine for most people. My brother said he thought they were super comfy. But I really couldn't have driven it far with these seats

The Trial Master had the cloth like seats in, which look mostly the same, but they must differ somehow, as I thankfully found these very comfortable. I think the same section of seat isn't as hard and doesn't protrude as much.

 

And that is it for the negatives.

 

 

Things I was impassive about:

• The steering doesn't self centre at low speed. So you have to manually wind it back when pulling out of a junction. I feel you'd just get used to this, but it is very different to any other 4x4 live axle vehicle I've driven. The instructor could only give me a generic it is like this due to the caster of live axle vehicles. But it isn't, it must be something else and I'd hope a deliberate design choice and not an error.
• The Grenadier is quite high to get into and has a slightly outward sloping ledge. There are some grab handles, but they could do better here. The optional side steps made a big difference to the ease of ingress. It 'felt' higher to jump in/out of than my 1989 Ninety.
• Autobox only. In an ideal world I'd have much preferred a manual. But given such limited choice these days with anything with a manual box, it really is buy an auto or don't buy anything. therefore, while not really what I'd choose, in this instance it wouldn't be a deal breaker.
• The bulge in the floor by your left foot. I can sort of see how a very big or tall per might have issues, but I found it to be an ideal foot rest and was completely a non issue for me.

 

Things I really liked:

• Performance. It wasn't TDV8 quick, but there was no reason to complain from a performance stand point. I'd love to see how the petrol compares and if it gets rid of the delay when pulling off from a standstill.
• Engine braking on road, the gearbox programming aside from pulling away and wide open throttle kick down was very good. It held gears well on hills without needing any intervention and did feel well sorted and maybe better than most automatic vehicles.
• Gearbox off road in low, lots of engine braking in gear, very low crawl speed and lots of control. Even in Drive it still held gears really well.
• Handling. It felt much smaller and more nimble on road than it is. It actually felt very tight and composed for normal driving, making it very enjoyable and fun.
• Ride quality. On road and on gravel tracks, it felt very sorted, compliant and comfortable. I do not believe most people would be able to tell it has live axles based on the ride and handling.
• Refinement. It was super quiet yet still made a good noise when you floored it.
• Comparing all of the above I would say it drove and went better than a good p38a Range Rover. Which I think is quite a compliment, as the p38 is very accomplished. It certainly had less wollow than a p38 has, but rode easily as well or better.
• Build quality. Despite these vehicles being well used, there wasn't a hint of a squeak, rattle or noise from anywhere inside or outside the vehicle. And they all looked immaculate inside as though they had rolled off the showroom floor (bar the mud on some of them). Very impressed they show no sign of wear at all.

I also really like the attention to detail:

Not just design, but function, such as the water wading mode pressuring the cabin with the AC for better water tight seals when wading.

 

Would I buy one?

Well YES. I do feel they are a bit pricey..... although a Jeep Wrangler will set you back £62-64k these days  but Id rather own one of these over pretty much any other new vehicle on the market. It really is what many of us dreamed the new Defender should have been. I still like the new Defender, but it is such a far cry from the Grenadier, that I don't feel they are even directly comparable. And indeed, should the new Defender be wearing Discovery 6 badges, I don't think anyone would compare them. It is only because they are badged as Defender that people still believe they are the kindred successor to the proper original "Land Rover" ethos.

 

If finances permitted it, I'd be ordering a Grenadier. Hopefully I might be able to grab a used one when the first bought of PCP buyers start trading them in.

In this colour please with the white roof (although the mushroom and Land Rover green colours look great too):

But with the 17" steel rims. I'd also want the front/rear lockers and the glass sunroofs with the cloth seats. I think a Trial Master with a couple of options would probably do it. The 5 seat commercial would also be perfectly acceptable. 🙂 

 

[landroversforever]

There’s one locally to me in that light blue with a white roof and it looks lovely.

[Happyoldgit]

Good review that🙂

[jeremy996]

I'm up to 13,000 miles in mine and I still love it. Got some glitches with HVAC, (no warm air to the footwell), and dodgy door seals, (three are falling off and the driver's door one is collecting water, so you get a wet surprise when you open the door), but hoping these get sorted, (or at least diagnosed), tomorrow.

[Anderzander]

5 hours ago, Happyoldgit said:

Good review that🙂

Very good review ! 
 

On the review subject:

I actually think the reviews point to them having done an incredible job. Creating a whole new brand and model of car cannot be anything other than incredibly hard.
 

There are very few cars brought to market by the established players that have wholly positive reviews, and more than enough with enormously negative reviews from somewhere. 
 

Quite remarkable really - and I wish them every success. 

[Bowie69]

Yes, most new arrivals are the likes of Kia, Hyundai and Proton in the 90s -this is most definitely not that.

[Daan]

The ozi explorer is testing one:

Must admit, I want one.

[landroversforever]

Popped up as a recommended video earlier…. Can’t say the thought of watching him fills me with joy!

[jeremy996]

8 hours ago, Daan said:

The ozi explorer is testing one:

Must admit, I want one.

To be fair to the pompous ASPW, it's not a bad review but I feel he makes a meal of the 'footrest' for clicks and engagement. Certainly the ease of driving when conditions are sub-optimal matches my experience.

[Daan]

Is the footrest the result of exhaust routing? Can it be modified?

[Gazzar]

12 hours ago, landroversforever said:

Popped up as a recommended video earlier…. Can’t say the thought of watching him fills me with joy!

I like his stuff, clearly an enthusiast, and experienced. He says it like he sees it, and is honest. I mightn't agree with him, but that's okay. 

 

His review was fair, I thought.

 

Mind you, with my driving needs these days, I'd only be looking at a second hand Dacia duster!!!!

[Bowie69]

2 hours ago, Daan said:

Is the footrest the result of exhaust routing? Can it be modified?

Yes, and anythings possible I guess, I read somewhere it is the cat, and needs to be as slowe as possible to engine for heat/efficiency reasons, so they couldn't move it without getting the whole engine reassessed for emissions, and therefore massive costs. 

Sounds plausible, but unsure exactly how true it is. 

 

[Snagger]

I think people give him more flack than deserved.  Yes, he does play up the pomposity, like Clarkson played up the buffoonery, and he is far too into gadgets (especially electrical) and too keen to take sponsored kit,  but he is at least very clear about it when he gets freebies and does give a pretty reasonable opinion on most stuff.

[Happyoldgit]

Oh God, him again. I thought he had already “done” the Grenadier. I will watch it later.