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It’s the wrong engine .... discuss ...


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This was my comment:

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I’m confused why you’re fed up about it?  Is it not better they build it than not? 

They have to comply with emissions to make one. Roadside repairable engines really can’t do that. So if you are going to build one - it needs to be like it is. 

The other thing we don’t know is what level of quality they will go for - when the Td5 came out it was a disaster - it had an ECU, but that proved itself very reliable. They’ve been the length and breadth of Africa many many times.

Also - people are becoming more engaged with electronics - we have some small garages and home users capable of working with and around all sorts of complex technologies on cars - that a few years ago would have been mysterious and impossible.

For me as well - where it’s made is immaterial. 

So cheer up !  Someone is doing what they can in the modern age - they (LR series and Defenders) never we’re perfect - this won’t be too, but at least it’s a utility vehicle and finally someone is putting function over form. 

Plus you’ll still be able to swing your spanner’s on everything but the engine electronics - and it won’t be that long before you’ll be able to sort that on your phone 😊

I’d be interested in everyone’s thoughts on this ? 

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I'm sure the engines can be built to be field repairable, at a cost.

Use of brass, more modular components, high grade plastics that are UV and temperature stable.

All possible.

But when the architect who drew the design, has to tell the engineers who specified the engine to remove the plastic engine cover in order to meet the pedestrian crash standards, I wonder if they really have the right experience to build an African mechanic proof vehicle.

ECU's are fine, everywhere has laptops now.

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41 minutes ago, Gazzar said:

 

But when the architect who drew the design, has to tell the engineers who specified the engine to remove the plastic engine cover in order to meet the pedestrian crash standards, I wonder if they really have the right experience to build an African mechanic proof vehicle.

I'm not sure that is the instance I'd pick on - on the long form video he was explaining that they had to find another 2cm for the pedestrian impact test and removing the cover gave them that without cost. Most engines sold on a supply basis are "one spec; take it or leave it", with the receiving party having to do any or all modifications to retain the price. I can well imagine a German engineer treating the engine as one assembly, not to be fiddled with. 

To be brutal, any vehicle sold in the EU will have to meet all of the Environmental specs, so electronics for engine, brakes and TC/ABS are compulsory. If they do a ROW spec, then presumably some things will be delete optional probably at additional cost!

The architect is quite a well known yacht interior designer, so the interior will be very interesting. Yachts have to be ergonomic, luxurious and practical, which sounds like a decent combination to me. Being able to hose it out should be a given! The proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

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That's the point, the engine hasn't been "ruggedised", because the engineers are treating it as a bought-in unit.

I think it has to be ruggedised, for it to be used in a remote area where field repaireability is essential.

I actually think the ECU is less of a risk than the potential failure of some clever piece of plastic that controls something deep in the engine.

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Though, thinking about it, if the 3d plans for these plastic parts were available, then it will become less of an issue, as I expect that the additive printers will become ubiquitous throughout the world over the next ten years.

 

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I was amused to see that he chose to use a D3 V8 water manifold as his example.

As my D3 is 15 years old and 140,000 miles, my one is shot, was porous and crumbles to dust, the B*&^part replacement lasted 6 months before also failing, the small bypass pipe on the plastic radiator has crumbled and fallen off, the plastic "T" bleed fitting on top of the engine crumpled to dust and somewhere under the inlet manifold something else has started leaking.

 

 

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1 hour ago, missingsid said:

I was amused to see that he chose to use a D3 V8 water manifold as his example.

As my D3 is 15 years old and 140,000 miles, my one is shot, was porous and crumbles to dust, the B*&^part replacement lasted 6 months before also failing, the small bypass pipe on the plastic radiator has crumbled and fallen off, the plastic "T" bleed fitting on top of the engine crumpled to dust and somewhere under the inlet manifold something else has started leaking.

At this point in a vehicle's life you find out why metal is better for things that are hot and vibrating all the time (ooer)

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I have a nasty suspicion that ruggedisation is not going to happen, past anything more complex than a baffled sump as being cost prohibitive. I suspect that Ineos are more interested in the powertrains that BMW have coming down the line later. The rumour mill suggests a full EV package and a hydrogen powertrain in time. 

Having said all that the 2.8 inline 6 (M52) in some SA Defenders did not seem to be too much of a disaster  

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In the latest India video, they said it was 2 years of adjustments/developments for the engine.

Can't say that that will include plastic stuff being made of aluminium now, but I suspect it will mean they have time to build an air intake that is suitable.

Any modern engine is a compromise in a vehicle like this, they will be complicated, for sure. I for one though, am not concerned about an ECU dying -I've owned a few cars in my life, and I have never had an ECU failure, nor even heard of one. I do accept that having so many sensors and systems like egr, turbo, for etc and the chance to go into limp mode will increase, but without all this stuff, you don't get through emissions legislation, and can't market a car at all..... So you have one choice if you want to build a car these days...

Reckon the BMW engine will be a good choice out of an impossible market.

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In the latest Ineos video, they said it was 2 years of adjustments/developments for the engine.

Can't say that that will include plastic stuff being made of aluminium now, but I suspect it will mean they have time to build an air intake that is suitable.

Any modern engine is a compromise in a vehicle like this, they will be complicated, for sure. I for one though, am not concerned about an ECU dying -I've owned a few cars in my life, and I have never had an ECU failure, nor even heard of one. I do accept that having so many sensors and systems like egr, turbo, for etc and the chance to go into limp mode will increase, but without all this stuff, you don't get through emissions legislation, and can't market a car at all..... So you have one choice if you want to build a car these days...

Reckon the BMW engine will be a good choice out of an impossible market.

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Interesting to see some actual questioning of the build of this, there's been a lot of people hailing the Grenadier as the messiah and the New Defender as being completely awful just because this thing has beam axles and looks like an old Defender.

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On 8/15/2020 at 12:38 AM, Gazzar said:

That's the point, the engine hasn't been "ruggedised", because the engineers are treating it as a bought-in unit.

I think it has to be ruggedised, for it to be used in a remote area where field repaireability is essential.

I actually think the ECU is less of a risk than the potential failure of some clever piece of plastic that controls something deep in the engine.

I agree, but not with the previous comment that everywhere has laptops, so ECUs a re fine.  Laptops are common, but I can vouch from experience here that people who can operate them and set up complex systems are thin on the ground in third world countries.  The bodging and damage from bad configurations would be as severe as Ghanaian Defenders Mike has been fixing, but with only specialists able to see the issues or fix them.

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There will always be critics of them but for the most part, BMW make well engineered and reliable engines. I already have faith that the reliability of this engine will vastly decrease the need for repairs compared to the LR options!

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Most engines since the series block had a troubled upbringing:

TDI 300, ate timing belts

TD5, oil in loom, and head cracks

SdV6, oil pump failure

V8 slipped liners

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5 hours ago, ballcock said:

I thought Land Rover used BMW engines in their range, were they any worse than their own offerings?

The M47 (TD4) was great IMHO, which is likely a predecessor of the Ineos unit being a cut-down version of BMW's six - 4cyl 2.0 instead of 6cyl 3.0

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The TD6 in the L322 was a BMW engine as well. Reportedly slow and perhaps underpowered in that vehicle but fairly bombproof (it was the gearboxes that let that model down I beleive). Freelander or the L322 engines are 20ish year old designs now though so I imagine the engine in the Ineos will have evolve a lot.

Then there is the 2.8 6 cylinder petrol engine that was used in the south african defenders - that was silky smooth in my old 5 series

Edited by reb78
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Is the aspiration to have an engine you can repair with a bottle opener and a spoon ? 
 

All engines have always had the capacity to have an issue that can’t be repaired at the side of the road, so the question is surely more around reliability?  - and with modern oils and manufacturing tolerances there seem to be lots of modern engines that have done vast mileages without issue ? 

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I think it's the concern that parts availability is inadequate in the long term, so the spoon, bailing twine and duct tape repair options might be relevent.

I think that 3D printing might alleviate some of this issue, as it's becoming more widely available, but it's wise to be skeptical about the support available for a complex expensive machine that you depend on.

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2 hours ago, Anderzander said:

Is the aspiration to have an engine you can repair with a bottle opener and a spoon ? 

Even my Morgan 1600 engine (Ford Cross Flow, not the most sophisticated engine ever) needs spanners and heavy machine tools. Modern engines seem to be pretty good, so long as the sparks don't leak out or the oil stops. Part of the solution seems to build the peripheries to a quality, not a price. How many times has your otherwise functional vehicle been stopped by a 25p failed connector or a bolt that was not thread locked?

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Build decisions aside I can't think of any common rail engine that has injectors that can reliably drink African diesel. Including the 2.5 tdci Pumas. ( Though the ca. 2000 tddi pumas will fit in a defender and work quite well.)

I have a couple of rebuilt 300tdis for that exact reason.

So it is another 'suv' that dies in the Sahara.

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I'm more interested in seeing some pic's of your 6x6 Pat , c'mon spill , lets have some pic's in a new thread .

We all know the potential for sensor/wiring failure in harsh conditions and the consequences to an electronic engine .

My take on it is useable limp/default mode that keeps it running and driveable until complete failure .

cheers

Steve b

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On 8/19/2020 at 10:39 PM, jeremy996 said:

Even my Morgan 1600 engine (Ford Cross Flow, not the most sophisticated engine ever) needs spanners and heavy machine tools. Modern engines seem to be pretty good, so long as the sparks don't leak out or the oil stops. Part of the solution seems to build the peripheries to a quality, not a price. How many times has your otherwise functional vehicle been stopped by a 25p failed connector or a bolt that was not thread locked?

When I put my dead simple 2.5 naturally aspirated diesel on the road, it worried me that it relied on an electric shut-off valve to keep the engine running (the 2286 diesel I had in my first Series 3 just used a cable).  So I bought a brand new shut-off valve.  It exploded within a few thousand miles and left me stranded on the side of the road, miles from home, for five hours.  I fitted a big, brass C.A.V. version out of a 2.5TD and now carry a spare and the correct spanner in the car!

It's true that the industry has evolved and most, if not all, modern engines are capable of going for years without a breakdown.  We just expect it now.  However, there have been more and more issues recently, mostly tied to emission-controlling add-ons, so using a fairly modern engine that has had time to prove itself (and is supported by an international dealer network) is a wise choice.  Not to mention that, in a fairly large vehicle, it's nice to have an engine with some capacity and a decent number of cylinders, given we are in an age when engines rely more and more on using big turbos to pump a lot of air through a tiny four pot.

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