300TDI vs TD5 as a first car

[ekh]

Hello everyone, 

This summer I am looking at buying an old defender 90 as my first car, and the choice is between a 300Tdi and TD5.

Looking online, TD5s seem to be more expensive than 300Tdis, however have higher MPG and more power than the 300Tdi. 

My question is, is it worth spending extra to buy a TD5? Does anyone have any experience driving a 300 Tdi economically or can anyone who has owned both comment on the difference in running costs? Does the extra power of the TD5 really make a difference driving in the UK?

Also as it is my first car I am expecting insurance to be astronomical either way, but is there a difference in insurance cost between them? 

Any insight from owners would be appreciated as I am really unsure of what to go for.

Thanks in advance. 

[Anderzander]

Hello and welcome ..

I think there is a big preference element here - and some of your preference will be driven by things we don’t know - like how you are going to use it etc …

So I think I would probably suggest two things:

The first is, if you can, drive a few of both of them.  The 300 is older - it’s noisier and slower - but it’s simpler and more basic too. My own experience is that the 300’s were a bit better made.. but the later Td5’s had nicer dashboards and instruments etc.  There are more things we could compare and contrast - but I do think they are not just binary / better. It’s more about what do you like and what do you want from the vehicles - so try and drive some. 

Personally … I love the Td5.

The second thing I’d suggest is that condition is much more important than if it’s a 300 or Td5. A really good 300 will be better in almost every way than a dog rough, mistreated, Td5 …. and thus make a better purchase.

A car that’s been looked after, is honest, straight, good condition, rot free, and mechanically sound is the primary basis for your choice. 

So I would suggest you have a clear budget - and just buy the best Defender you can. 

[Chicken Drumstick]

42 minutes ago, ekh said:

Hello everyone, 

This summer I am looking at buying an old defender 90 as my first car, and the choice is between a 300Tdi and TD5.

Looking online, TD5s seem to be more expensive than 300Tdis, however have higher MPG and more power than the 300Tdi. 

My question is, is it worth spending extra to buy a TD5? Does anyone have any experience driving a 300 Tdi economically or can anyone who has owned both comment on the difference in running costs? Does the extra power of the TD5 really make a difference driving in the UK?

Also as it is my first car I am expecting insurance to be astronomical either way, but is there a difference in insurance cost between them? 

Any insight from owners would be appreciated as I am really unsure of what to go for.

Thanks in advance. 

While both vehicles look similar, there are some evolutionary differences.

Lets take a step back. The 200Tdi and 300Tdi are very similar, so if thinking of one, worth considering the other. The 300Tdi is IMO a more productionised (aka cheaper to build) version of the 200Tdi. As the Discovery and Defender had slightly different variants of the 200Tdi. The development of the 300Tdi let them have a single engine type for both vehicles. There where some advances with the 300Tdi being a serpentine belt. But power, torque, mpg and performance are pretty much the same (technically the Defender 200Tdi was less powerful than the Discovery variant, the 300Tdi has the same specs as the Disco 200Tdi engine). In practice however, I'd say a 300Tdi seems to be a little more refined than a 200, but it is very close. The only difference is the gearbox. The 200Tdi uses the older LT-77 5-speed, while the 300Tdi uses the R380 5-speed. In theory the R380 is stronger and reverse is in a different location. In practice there is very little real world difference. And I've driven more nicer shifting LT-77's than R380's.

Overall a 200 and 300 are both good vehicles. I had an L-Reg 300Tdi hard top as my first vehicle way back in 1997.

The Td5 brought in a number of changes. The Td5 engine is more powerful (although the standard tune for the Defender sucks, the engine goes a lot better in the Disco 2 in standard tune, but lets come back to this later). so the Td5 is quicker than a Tdi and has more tuning potential that the Tdi will never match. However by modern car standard both vehicles are pretty slow. The Td5 uses the same R380 5-speed as the 300Tdi. Other changes include things like a digitally controlled speedo instead of cable, optional traction control (for off road use to simulate limit slip differentials, it isn't a road bias stability system). And the likelihood to find factory air con and central. 

All in all the Td5 is dynamically a better vehicle. Faster, more refined and maybe better specced.

Downsides. Well as you've said, a Td5 might cost more to buy. And I think the thickness of some of the body panels was reduced. So a Td5 is more prone to panel damage and corrosion. Not a major thing, but something you might notice more so when looking at examples. Such as corrosion around the rivets on the side of the rear tub. Something you'd see less often on a Tdi model. The chassis also underwent some revisions on the Td5 with an ever so slightly larger tank at the rear of the vehicle instead of under the drivers seat. Think it is only a gallon or so bigger of usable capacity.

The Td5 engine is a lovely engine and arguably one of the best "Rover" designed engines. It has a few quirks, but overall is a solid and reliable engine. They also sound lovely with an aftermarket exhaust and can quite easily get to 150-190hp with a few mods (that you'd need to declare insurance wise). A Tdi is good for more like 120-135hp mod for mod. But there is a difference in how they drive. The Td5 has less low end and a strong mid and more revs. A very noticeable boost threshold and arguably more laggy feel to it. A Tdi pulls like a steam train off idle, but won't rev the same.

The Tdi's can sound nice too, more gruff than a Td5 and not as musical. Really the biggest difference is refinement or lack thereof with the Tdi's. Good stout engines, but a Td5 should be more refined at any and all speeds.

MPG wise. I'd say neither are likely to be great. It'll depend how you drive and where. I'd say a sensible expectation would be 25-28mpg with either engine. Although both can see over 30mpg and both capable of nearer the teens if modded. Overall I'd probably say the Tdi is the more frugal. But really too close to call it.

As for maintenance/complexity. They are pretty similar, the Td5 you might want a code reader, while the Tdi is purely spanners. But both are simple and easy to work on.

 

Not sure if that helped or not.

I'd say try and grab a drive with both engines and see what you think. Might be worth checking some insurance quotes too, as I don't know if they will vary between engines.

As a conclusion - A Tdi & Td5 are similar enough that either would be as good as the other for almost anything. So it may not matter which you went for. But both carry advantages and disadvantages depending on budget and what you want from the vehicle and what you plan to do with it in the future.

[ekh]

24 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

While both vehicles look similar, there are some evolutionary differences.

Lets take a step back. The 200Tdi and 300Tdi are very similar, so if thinking of one, worth considering the other. The 300Tdi is IMO a more productionised (aka cheaper to build) version of the 200Tdi. As the Discovery and Defender had slightly different variants of the 200Tdi. The development of the 300Tdi let them have a single engine type for both vehicles. There where some advances with the 300Tdi being a serpentine belt. But power, torque, mpg and performance are pretty much the same (technically the Defender 200Tdi was less powerful than the Discovery variant, the 300Tdi has the same specs as the Disco 200Tdi engine). In practice however, I'd say a 300Tdi seems to be a little more refined than a 200, but it is very close. The only difference is the gearbox. The 200Tdi uses the older LT-77 5-speed, while the 300Tdi uses the R380 5-speed. In theory the R380 is stronger and reverse is in a different location. In practice there is very little real world difference. And I've driven more nicer shifting LT-77's than R380's.

Overall a 200 and 300 are both good vehicles. I had an L-Reg 300Tdi hard top as my first vehicle way back in 1997.

The Td5 brought in a number of changes. The Td5 engine is more powerful (although the standard tune for the Defender sucks, the engine goes a lot better in the Disco 2 in standard tune, but lets come back to this later). so the Td5 is quicker than a Tdi and has more tuning potential that the Tdi will never match. However by modern car standard both vehicles are pretty slow. The Td5 uses the same R380 5-speed as the 300Tdi. Other changes include things like a digitally controlled speedo instead of cable, optional traction control (for off road use to simulate limit slip differentials, it isn't a road bias stability system). And the likelihood to find factory air con and central. 

All in all the Td5 is dynamically a better vehicle. Faster, more refined and maybe better specced.

Downsides. Well as you've said, a Td5 might cost more to buy. And I think the thickness of some of the body panels was reduced. So a Td5 is more prone to panel damage and corrosion. Not a major thing, but something you might notice more so when looking at examples. Such as corrosion around the rivets on the side of the rear tub. Something you'd see less often on a Tdi model. The chassis also underwent some revisions on the Td5 with an ever so slightly larger tank at the rear of the vehicle instead of under the drivers seat. Think it is only a gallon or so bigger of usable capacity.

The Td5 engine is a lovely engine and arguably one of the best "Rover" designed engines. It has a few quirks, but overall is a solid and reliable engine. They also sound lovely with an aftermarket exhaust and can quite easily get to 150-190hp with a few mods (that you'd need to declare insurance wise). A Tdi is good for more like 120-135hp mod for mod. But there is a difference in how they drive. The Td5 has less low end and a strong mid and more revs. A very noticeable boost threshold and arguably more laggy feel to it. A Tdi pulls like a steam train off idle, but won't rev the same.

The Tdi's can sound nice too, more gruff than a Td5 and not as musical. Really the biggest difference is refinement or lack thereof with the Tdi's. Good stout engines, but a Td5 should be more refined at any and all speeds.

MPG wise. I'd say neither are likely to be great. It'll depend how you drive and where. I'd say a sensible expectation would be 25-28mpg with either engine. Although both can see over 30mpg and both capable of nearer the teens if modded. Overall I'd probably say the Tdi is the more frugal. But really too close to call it.

As for maintenance/complexity. They are pretty similar, the Td5 you might want a code reader, while the Tdi is purely spanners. But both are simple and easy to work on.

 

Not sure if that helped or not.

I'd say try and grab a drive with both engines and see what you think. Might be worth checking some insurance quotes too, as I don't know if they will vary between engines.

As a conclusion - A Tdi & Td5 are similar enough that either would be as good as the other for almost anything. So it may not matter which you went for. But both carry advantages and disadvantages depending on budget and what you want from the vehicle and what you plan to do with it in the future.

Thank you for all the information, I'll try and drive a few and see which I prefer. The only defender I have driven so far is a 2013 110 with the 2.2 puma which I imagine is a pretty different experience from both the Tdi and Td5. 

[ekh]

1 hour ago, Anderzander said:

Hello and welcome ..

I think there is a big preference element here - and some of your preference will be driven by things we don’t know - like how you are going to use it etc …

So I think I would probably suggest two things:

The first is, if you can, drive a few of both of them.  The 300 is older - it’s noisier and slower - but it’s simpler and more basic too. My own experience is that the 300’s were a bit better made.. but the later Td5’s had nicer dashboards and instruments etc.  There are more things we could compare and contrast - but I do think they are not just binary / better. It’s more about what do you like and what do you want from the vehicles - so try and drive some. 

Personally … I love the Td5.

The second thing I’d suggest is that condition is much more important than if it’s a 300 or Td5. A really good 300 will be better in almost every way than a dog rough, mistreated, Td5 …. and thus make a better purchase.

A car that’s been looked after, is honest, straight, good condition, rot free, and mechanically sound is the primary basis for your choice. 

So I would suggest you have a clear budget - and just buy the best Defender you can. 

Thank you for the reply, like I have said in response to another reply I will try and test drive a few. In terms of how I am going to use it, the majority of the miles will be on the road to and from work but it will see offroad use most weekends (nothing silly mainly just plodding through heavily rutted woodland rides). I assumed for this offroad use where ground clearance is more of a factor than anything else that both would perform similarly. 

[Sigi_H]

No matter what. Since both engines are good it is better to focus on a good body work and chassis!

 

[fmmv]

Ignoring technical differences years back it was possible to insure a 300tdi much more cheaply for an 18 year old driver. That may have changed of course.

[Chicken Drumstick]

9 hours ago, ekh said:

Thank you for all the information, I'll try and drive a few and see which I prefer. The only defender I have driven so far is a 2013 110 with the 2.2 puma which I imagine is a pretty different experience from both the Tdi and Td5. 

The Puma (also known as a Tdci) is still very much a Defender to drive. But yes, they are a step on again. And generally are more refined and go better stock for stock. The obvious differences are the dash and you don't have the traditional vents that open up to the outside. Plus the 6 speed gearbox and Ford Transit based engine. The Puma's go well and can be tuned for a similar 150-190hp as the Td5's. The 6 speed box is a mixed bag. 6 gears are good, but the gear change is very clunky and jerky compared to the older 5-speed transmissions. In reality you can't go wrong with any. And if you plan to keep, Defenders are easy to mod and swap different or later engines into.

Personally I think the Td5 is the sweet spot. I like the older dash and vents. But you get a good blend of performance and refinement. Also, if you plan to off road, the traction control is quite a game changer in some situations. Note, traction control was optional on a Td5 though, so not all have it. Condition is important too and tidy vs tatty or solid vs rotten might also play a part in any decision. Although worth bearing in mind, you can replace every single part on a Defender. Which is a rare thing compared to other cars. This means that no matter what is broken, worn or corroded, it can be replaced and normally is a fairly easy job to do.

[Snagger]

I agree with the above.  I found the six speed box a pain - modern engines are designed to be very efficient at a peak rpm, and lack torque outside of it, which is why modern cars have so many gears.  That means that you are far more frequently changing gears when town driving than with an older model.  The Tdi is much easier in that respect, but doesn’t have the grunt of the TDCI.  The TD5 balances those two aspects very well, and I found it the nicer drive of the three, though I only drove a Tdi and TD5 Defender a few times.

But condition is more important than spec when buying, especially as a first car where you are going to have to learn about maintenance and repair from scratch.  The less big jobs, the better.  However, the Tdi will be easier to work on as they are simpler and have more access.

[Happyoldgit]

I’ve owned several of all of them but views on which is best are very subjective. As a first car your main concern is going to be obtaining suitable insurance to cover all your circumstances. Bear in mind that all changes of the vehicle from standard should be declared to the insurers or brokers.

[Sharp]

Great information and interesting reading from Drumstick. I opted for a 300tdi about 8 years ago. I drove some TD5's and prefer that engine and dash, however a couple I looked at had engine issues and the additional complexity put me off. Both engines have their quirks and weak points. I've been happy with the 300, it's really easy to work on, parts are cheap and it seems pretty indestructible (fingers crossed). 

I wish I had waited and saved up an extra few thousand and bought a vehicle whose body and chassis were in better condition.  Despite trying to educate myself, I didn't really know what I was looking at and my enthusiasm for crawling around in the gutter holding a welder didn't last as long as I had hoped! For the amount I have spent over the years, I could probably have bought two vehicles by now - however I have also learned a lot and had endless excuses for buying shiny tools!

[Bowie69]

TD5s are not complex beasts at all really, yes of course more complex compared to a 2/300TDI, but then most things are.

A TD5 was designed in the 90s, so it is already 30 years old! Nowadays with a scan tool of some description and some googling you get anything done DIY, just the same as a TDI.

Plus the 5 cylinder does sound a lot better, well, at least for a diesel  

 

[jeremy996]

Always buy a Defender on condition and take a disinterested mechanically aware mate to talk you out of the rusty dogs you will meet!

The usual used-car advice is buy the best one you can afford; for a Defender I'd suggest keeping 20% of your budget back for fixing bodges you find once the vehicle is home or to make it more useful to you.

As a young driver, keep it as standard as possible and see if adding parents or grandparents as named drivers reduces the insurance cost.

As for engine choice, none are rubbish, (except the TD), but there are a lot of 300Tdi spares out there.

[jason110]

18 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

Always buy a Defender on condition and take a disinterested mechanically aware mate to talk you out of the rusty dogs you will meet!

.

This is sound advice. You could discuss tdi vs td5 all day long and then some. 
 

buy on condition 

[Maverik]

A very subjective decision, I bought my first Defender 90 almost 15 years ago. Decide what you want out of a vehicle and this should give you some direction.

I have owned 200/300 TDI's for a long time they are great but, if you're looking for something to "keep up" with more modern pace of driving in my opinion, then you need to be looking at Td5 onwards type engine technology. - of course there are exceptions to 200/300tdi's which are well built/tweaked they can go really well.

There is a big budget versus condition trade off, for example I just bought a 2003 Discovery Td5 for £1000 its on the road, but it needs a good bit of money spent on her to actually get and keep it on the road.

I could have spent £5000 and got a vehicle that was good to go out the box, swings and roundabouts.

 

FYI I've gone from a pretty avid 200/300tdi lover to a I want more power (drivability) from my truck, so I'll be going to a Td5 when I get the chance for my 90.

There is very little concerning Td5 engines that now hasn't been addressed and there are a good number of digital tools out there that deal with the ECU/control side of things.

[Sigi_H]

In another Forum a rally driver told me that he has killed some R380, but never a LT77

Just to make it more complicated 😉

 

[Hazza]

I had a Td5 90 as my first car which I loved, and having not really driven much else I didn't mind the comforts of a more modern car.

I then had a couple of euroboxes, and now have a 110 which I ran as a 200tdi for a few years and have now converted to Td5 power. I really missed the drivability of the Td5 - it just has a bit more power and the ability to rev it means I find it easier to keep up with traffic. It's unmapped currently so has plenty more to give. I have a company car (Tesla... 😳) but find myself drawn to driving the 110 whenever possible, far more involved/interesting for a journey!

So I'd go for a Td5 personally, but definitely listen to the advice above about buying based on condition.

Depending on where you're based, there's bound to be someone on here who's local to you who'd be happy to come and look at vehicles with you.

[bishbosh]

4 hours ago, Sigi_H said:

In another Forum a rally driver told me that he has killed some R380, but never a LT77

Just to make it more complicated 😉

 

Bu Ashcroft transmissions says they can no longer supply LT77's as key components are no longer available. Also, rally drivers kill everything, even themselves sometimes!

[Chicken Drumstick]

6 hours ago, jason110 said:

This is sound advice. You could discuss tdi vs td5 all day long and then some. 
 

buy on condition 

Certainly not saying don't consider condition. But as you can buy all the bits relatively easily to repair, I'd probably opt for a tatty Td5 over a tidy Tdi if they were the same money and both solid vehicles. But it does come down to your longer term plans. Which I admit for the op may be less of a concern if it is a first vehicle. Few people stick or get to keep their first vehicle, although many wish that they had!

But a for instance. You can fairly easily swap a Td5 (or even something like an M57) into a 300Tdi. But it is still a fairly major project for most people and will come at a cost that typically involves 4 figures. It would also be a modified vehicle. A Td5 should go well in 100% stock form and as mentioned, if you plan to off road, the traction control is quite a game changer in some situations.

[jason110]

1 hour ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Certainly not saying don't consider condition. But as you can buy all the bits relatively easily to repair, I'd probably opt for a tatty Td5 over a tidy Tdi if they were the same money and both solid vehicles. But it does come down to your longer term plans. Which I admit for the op may be less of a concern if it is a first vehicle. Few people stick or get to keep their first vehicle, although many wish that they had!

But a for instance. You can fairly easily swap a Td5 (or even something like an M57) into a 300Tdi. But it is still a fairly major project for most people and will come at a cost that typically involves 4 figures. It would also be a modified vehicle. A Td5 should go well in 100% stock form and as mentioned, if you plan to off road, the traction control is quite a game changer in some situations.

Like I said you can discuss this till the cows come and then some 

[muzaz]

Engines, gearboxes and mechanical parts in general are fairly easy to change or replace. Body/chassis repairs are not. Have a good look at the bulkhead. 

[Snagger]

20 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Certainly not saying don't consider condition. But as you can buy all the bits relatively easily to repair, I'd probably opt for a tatty Td5 over a tidy Tdi if they were the same money and both solid vehicles. But it does come down to your longer term plans. Which I admit for the op may be less of a concern if it is a first vehicle. Few people stick or get to keep their first vehicle, although many wish that they had!

But a for instance. You can fairly easily swap a Td5 (or even something like an M57) into a 300Tdi. But it is still a fairly major project for most people and will come at a cost that typically involves 4 figures. It would also be a modified vehicle. A Td5 should go well in 100% stock form and as mentioned, if you plan to off road, the traction control is quite a game changer in some situations.

I completely agreed with your earlier comments, but disagree with this one.  This is a prospective buyer of a first car, so unlikely someone with the skills, time, tooling and capacity yet for a long list of work.  It’s substantially easier for us with years of tinkering and fairly full toolboxes, but not for those new to vehicle maintenance.  Within a reasonable selection of spec (ie wheel base and body type), I still recommend condition over detailed specification.  I also echo the importance of it being original spec to avoid complications with insurance and maintenance.

[jeremy996]

Do not underestimate the pettiness of an insurance company - absolutely standard is good if you want cheaper insurance. Save the fancy wheels, tyres, seats and lights for vehicle number 2 or 3. What you need to get next is several years no claims bonus and the odds are against you.  

[ekh]

12 hours ago, Snagger said:

I completely agreed with your earlier comments, but disagree with this one.  This is a prospective buyer of a first car, so unlikely someone with the skills, time, tooling and capacity yet for a long list of work.  It’s substantially easier for us with years of tinkering and fairly full toolboxes, but not for those new to vehicle maintenance.  Within a reasonable selection of spec (ie wheel base and body type), I still recommend condition over detailed specification.  I also echo the importance of it being original spec to avoid complications with insurance and maintenance.

Hi, op here, I am pretty mechanically competent and do have access to any tools i may need through family (unless theres lots of defender specific tools?) but you are quite right that I’d rather not have a long list of repairs.

Theres been a few replies about chassis and body condition and I can definitely manage mechanical work but I am adamant about not doing any welding - my limited experience + my cheap welder leads to what i like to call ‘welds with integrated pressure release orifices’ (aka full of porosity). 

Thats a good point about insurance, in doing some online quotes the TDI seems to be much more expensive than the TD5 but ive read on some other forums that you really have to call around to get an accurate defender quote since the quick online sites often muddle models. Also theres the whole van/car thing which is also confusing the insurance matter too. 

Ive got until summer so have time to work it all out but theres definitely alot of contrasting info out there

 

[Snagger]

The Tdi should be cheaper to insure as it has less power and torque,  but any modifications will bump up the premiums spectacularly.  You will also find differences in premiums between different body styles and numbers of seats.  Obviously, there are many other factors like your age, annual mileage, whether it is parked on the road, driveway or garage, general location and so on, but given that those are going to be the same for either vehicle, they can be discounted.

It's handy that you have some knowledge.  Land Rovers have some unique aspects, but nothing that can’t be answered on here.  Welding isn’t too hard if you can get the tools and get some practice on scrap, but buying all the tools isn’t cheap and while the welding itself isn’t complicated, getting the access by stripping down large amounts of the body or mechanicals can be.  You can see how it can quickly become complex on Muzaz’s engine swap thread, where he is now engaged in some fairly heavy bulkhead work.  Bulkhead and chassis are both expensive and big jobs to replace, so those are the items to check the most closely.  Repairs are possible, but are often far more involved than at first glance, and the rot can be far more severe than initially visible.