Kam Shafts taken from Portal rover thread

[Lara]

Little edit to my post. S162 is the correct spec for Maraging 300

Fresh head on this morning

Lara

[uninformed]

Steve,

It was exactly this totally misinformed comment that made me finally loose confidence in your company.

The M in 300M Does not in any way = Maraging

300M is a vacuum re melted 4340 Carbon Steel Alloy

"300M is a low alloy, vacuum melted, steel of very high strength. Essentially it is a modified AISI 4340 steel with silicon, vanadium and slightly greater carbon and molybdenum content than 4340. 300M has a very good combination of strength (280 to 305 ksi), toughness, fatigue strength and good ductility. It is a through hardening alloy"

Maraging 300 is a NON CARBON steel alloy. (carbon makes steel potentially brittle, hence the development of this special alloy)

"Maraging 300 alloy is a very high strength iron base, nickel , molybdenum, cobalt alloy. It may be age hardened to a strength level of 300 ksi ultimate with a hardness on the order of Rockwell C 53" (A poor memory suggests S165 also applies, may be a digit out though ;o)

I don't think your company is a bad company, and if you read my post, I always found your company very helpful, unfortunately though I did not find the products at the time matched your information, maybe the same missinformation is being handed to you by your suppliers, hense the problems in performance?

Regards,

Lara

exactly..... 4340 300M is NOT 300 marging,nor is it hy-tuf. im just a carpenter and i know this. kam should really get there info straight if they are going to go public....doesnt give us much confidence in them at all.

also is your contract with the australian defence force or landrover australia?

serg

[white90]

Serg

Steve said he'll leave this post as is now so maybe you'll need to PM/Call him

[simonr]

Is it really that big a deal? Steve made a bit of a mistake suggesting they were the SAME - but the properties and applications of all of them are similar. It may even be that within a particular frame of suitability for a particular application they can be considered the same?

As he said himself, the material was chosen as a compromise between cost and performance. For any product you have to strike a balance that in your sector gives you the largest potential market.

The forum currently seems keen on pouncing on any minute mistake or inaccuracy that anyone makes and then hounding them to the point that they'll never post again.

Steve could be a valuable contributor to this forum - but I doubt he'll be back now. KAM products contain some pretty innovative technology. They may not be for everyone - but that's life.

I think some people could do with realising that nobody is perfect, we all make mistakes and if you do - it's not really that big a deal.

Si

[Happyoldgit]

Wise words Si. I personally feel this thread has gone as far as it needs to go.

[Lara]

Simon,

You are right in some respects but Steve was one of the people doing the "correcting" unfortunately inaccurately, No problem, as you say, we all make mistakes, I did in my last post as all can see. (that is why it was made as a new post and not an edit) but if you correct people, you should be bloody sure about your facts or you stand to be shot down pretty fast!

There are a lot of people on this forum and it is probably one of the best educated around, with a hell of a lot of knowledge and probably even more "hidden" knowledge inside some people who speak less and do more!

Kam are not a bad company, and Steve has handled himself fairly well. Hopefully he can listen to what we are saying and move KAM forwards even more.

The words though, "do" need backing up with the product, and the first way forwards is to get everyones confidence back!

How is the coil commander? did it help?

Lara.

[jules]

Not wanting to get too involved but I've competed on Kam shaftes and R&P and never had any problems in a 90 with a 4.2V8 auto.

I do drive fairly hard and have been known to abuse trucks from time to time and nothing broke.

[uninformed]

Is it really that big a deal? Steve made a bit of a mistake suggesting they were the SAME - but the properties and applications of all of them are similar. It may even be that within a particular frame of suitability for a particular application they can be considered the same?

As he said himself, the material was chosen as a compromise between cost and performance. For any product you have to strike a balance that in your sector gives you the largest potential market.

The forum currently seems keen on pouncing on any minute mistake or inaccuracy that anyone makes and then hounding them to the point that they'll never post again.

Steve could be a valuable contributor to this forum - but I doubt he'll be back now. KAM products contain some pretty innovative technology. They may not be for everyone - but that's life.

I think some people could do with realising that nobody is perfect, we all make mistakes and if you do - it's not really that big a deal.

Si

yes it is to me.... there is a reason they are similar BUT NOT THE SAME! and its a bull**** excuse for someone running a company that is making products from a specific material and cant even get there info correct. he didnt misspell a word or quote the wrong part number. it is more to the point of being uneductated in that field WHICH IS HIS BUSINESS.

and personally i think there is a difference between 4340 300m, hytuff and 300 Marging.... other wise every man and his dog would be running shafts like Lara's, there is also quite a difference in heat treating these different materials........

serg

[simonr]

QED

[Rizla 1]

Kam have been around 20 odd years - playing around with shafts etc - so they should know by now !!

Have they learned by there mistakes ? Lets hope so

[uninformed]

QED

what is QED?

serg

[jules]

what is QED?

serg

Q.E.D. is an abbreviation of the Latin phrase "quod erat demonstrandum" (literally, "that which was to be demonstrated"). The phrase is written in its abbreviated form at the end of a mathematical proof or philosophical argument, to signify that the last statement deduced was the one to be demonstrated, so the proof is complete.

[uninformed]

here is another way to look at it.

say im looking at upgrading my cv's. i look at cv unlimited, longfield, rovertracks, and ashcrofts. now all of these have the bell made from 4340. they have different designs in the spline and vehicle application, but can all be made to fit a rover. ashcroft make drop in replacement and use a standard size ball not a small one. there OD is as big as it can be to fit in the swivel ball. KAM state they are making theres out of AEROSPACE 300M. hmmm sounds flash maybe better than 4340..... so i ask then he makes a statement that makes me loose confidence in there product. simple as that.

this is a public forum, i wasnt bashing anyone personaly, calling them a bad person or the like. so i pushed a few questions. if i didnt and we all belived what we where told, we would all think stock landrovers cannot be equaled nor need improving. if Steve wants to come on a public forum, he better do his research first and get his info correct or it will do a big diservice to his company.

and if he is making his bells out of 300 marging or even 4340 300m he should let people know as this will give information people want when researching products to improve the ****e that comes OEM

Serg

[Off Road Toad]

O.K People, Fairplay. I got some Technical information wrong. The guy on our design side who i got the info from was a little busy at the time and probably didnt need me hastling him for spec sheets. This is no excuse and He will be available for a public flogging at a landrover show in the near future.

Hopefully as already suggested, if anyone has any serious questions or issues then please give us a call (01483 419779) or email steve@kamdiffs.com

No one has as yet.

Our products have progressed over the last five years and are continuing to do so.

As already said before, If you have any issues or useful suggestions please let us know in person!.

KIND regards, Steve.

[pantg]

People hi,

as already quoted KAM was established circa 1991.

I have been in touch with them since 1993 snce they were based in the very small premises and very hamble beginnings. During the running of the last 15 years the undersighed assisted them into the creation and testing of their current range of Lockers and ended up acting as their representative and exclusive importer in Greece (eventhough some here in Greece say that they are the exclusive importers, God knows how this is possible when I receive my due commission on all their sales.....)

Steve is new in the company and I can understand his lack of specific knowledge on a few things.

During all those years of my cooperation with KAM Diffs Ltd I have understood a few things, got to face a few problems in terms of quality, proper checking procedures of components and availability of spare parts

BUT I have established the following.

The company is doing its best to face any problems, support the clients and provide good service and good products.

On a few markets problems were faced with bad decisions taken in terms of clients' support, availability of spares and return of orders due to lack of proper communications.

Those last two years they have started a very difficult procedure of establishing themselves as one of the big names in transmission components. It appears likely that they will succeed and especially now that more people have been added to the team. I hope that some hasty and wrong decisions in terms of assigning retailer rights will be faced in the proper way and those problems will seize.

The components sold are of good quality and depending on the model they are targeted to various markets.

As someone who has been involved with Landies and assisted into the creation of several modified Landies that ACTUALLY WORK (which is the difficult thing, anyone can modify a Landy but does it operate properly?) here in Greece for the last 15 years ranging from the vehicles of the organisers of Camel Trophy itself in Greece and up to serious restorations/upgrades I would say the following for the halfshafts and I am sure most of you will agree.

The factory (KAM DIFFS Ltd) itself advises the use of the Aerospace material heavy duty halfshafts for extreme competition or extreme heavy duty use.

The "standard" HEAVY DUTY halfshafts are meant for vehicles with standard, or close to standard engine performance and specifications and standard or close to standard sized tyres. This is what is stipulated onto the guarantee terms. It is perfectly understandable and if adhered to the standard HEAVY DUTY halfshafts will not create a problem to the end buyer unless he reaches the levels of abuse to his car in illogical or dangerous endeavours.

An example is a Greek driver in the Sahara this Easter jumping off a 30 meters sanddune at about 80 KpH, resulting into bending his rear axle and breaking a KAM halfshaft. OF course he accepted his fault and he did not blame the KAM halfshaft for that but then again his vehicle was set up in the wrong way suspensionwise, was loaded in excees of the maximum allowed gross weight and this can only be blamed onto the person/company modifying his vehicle and the driver's approach to sanddune driving. A combination of an unexperienced retailer (I have repeatedly warned KAM for their improper selection) and a gang-ho and not so carefull driver.

IF the end buyer wishes to fit a very high powered engine or very wide/very tall tyres he MUST chose the Aerospace specifications heavy duty halfshafts.

If a fellow Land Rover owners wishes to upgrade the transmission components of a HEAVILY modified vehicle fitted with large/wide/taller tyres the only suitable option from KAM is the Aerospace quality heavy duty halfshafts.

And then again even those will not be a 100% damage proof option since we all know that ALL things can break in the hands of a very willing driver or as a component of the transmission system attached to a very powerful engine.

We can also discuss about the CV conversion kit. But I do not think it is necessary since this product also is a heavier duty item but it is not meant for vehicles with excessive power, large tyres or treated with abuse.

The CV conversion kit is mainly targeted to the user who prefers to know that the CVs and their outer halfshafts are of better quality and able to withstand more than the standard LR items. Their MAIN ADVANTAGE though is the ability they provide to have the car back on the road (or the competition event) in minutes after you consume the "scape goat" fuseable outer halfshaft.

IF the user of the vehicle is focused on 100% heavier duty CVs then the fuseable halfshaft is NOT the best solution and as such can not be critisized negatively. IF you use the wrong product for the wrong application it is sure that you will be disappointed. But it will be mainly a fault of your decisions and not a fault of the product itself.

My personal advise to the people who trust my opinion on setting up their Land Rovers is first to establish what they want to do with their cars and how they want them to look, feel and operate.

IF you wish to create a mega powerful monster truck completely out of its factory specifications then it is logical that you will need a series of either mega expensive or out of specification or custom made components.

KAM DOES offer very good quality products at very good prices and a very good service nowdays. It is targeted to heavy use and not abuse. It is targeted to military use but even those military applications are limited by specifications. If the specifications on engine power and torque and size of tyres are exceeded then I do not think it is fair to criticise of damages to components that are designed, manufactured and tested up to some limits.

The problem lays with the people who recommend them for improper applications and on vehicles that run out the factory specifications (and this is a HUGE problem we have here in Greece Steve)

I would like again to point out that I DO HAVE a very close business connection with KAM Diffs Ltd so everybody please understand this.

But then again if I were not happy with how their products function and operate and how they react to input from clients and their representatives/distributors in relation to the products I would not have been putting my name and good fame in my country next to theirs for the last 15 years. IF this changes or the products offered become of lower quality I do not and will not have a problem to stop any connections with them. My main scope and objective is to represent what is best and most suitable for the real needs of the LR and offroad vehicle user in my country.

This forum is not frequented but lots of Greek LR owners so I am sure you can appreciate my frankness and straight talking. I am NOT trying to sell you a KAM product, just want to share my experience with the products of this company for the last 15 years and hopefully assist some fellow LR owners into choosing the proper halfshafts and CV joints for their cars.

If I were to chose such components for a very heavy duty racing or competition event I would opt for the Aerospace KAM halfshafts upon availability, the Ashcroft or Scorpion Racing CV joints, a KAM or QUAIFE front and rear diff (depending on the nature of the event), KAM crownwheel and pinion sets and a QUAIFE center differential inside the LT230 transfer box.

If I were to prepare a vehicle for expedition use and ease of maintenance I would select KAM halfshafts with their LSD/Locker units for the front and rear axle, the KAM CV conversion kit for the front axle with four spare fuseable short outer stubs and a QUAIFE center differential inside the LT230 transfer box.

QUAIFE halfshafts are not a bad idea also but only for competition oriented applications and mainly due to the fact that this company covers them with factory guarantee even for competition use and with a lifetime duration.

I have also heard excellent comments for the Great Basin Rover transmission components that Bill Davies makes in the USA but it seems halfshafts are not his game. His CV joints though have proved themselves to serious abuse here in Greece as fitted onto the cars of friends of mine who have purchased them directly from Bill.

===========================

Steve welcome aboard. IT is nice to see you taking care to customers' complains and remarks. Hope we speak soon on the phone.

===========================

Hope the above is of assistance to someone.

Take care everybody

Pantelis Giamarellos

LAND ROVER CLUB OF GREECE

representative and importer of KAM Diffs Ltd in Greece.

[Lara]

Thanks for your words Pantelis,

I think though that this thread has now run it's course and there is nothing more to be gained by adding to anything you have said in your extensive post.

Other than please everyone stop referring to anything special as "Aerospace" they have steel toilets on planes, these by definition are then made of "Aerospace alloy" but I would not make my transmission from the same material. "Aerospace" means nothing, so better to say nothing if you don't really know the spec, or just say "Super Alloy" which is a generic term commonly known to refer to special grad steel alloys.

Regards,

Lara.

[Lara]

Please can someone explain to me why the "Halfshaft material" thread was locked?

This thread had already run it's course but someone felt the need to lock it even so!

Are we getting swayed by commercial enterprises now to stop us voicing our opinion? or is there a sensible reason?

Lara

[pugwash]

makes sense to me to lock that thred- as you said yourselfit had run it's course

all interested parties had made their comments, everyone had had the chance to say their piece had they wanted to, and the thread had the possibility to descend into bickering and tit for tat insults. A perfect thread to lock at the perfect point- good moderation.

[q-rover]

I just read the thread and unlike a certain other 'corrector of misinformation' threads, found it

to be quite interesting. I can't see an obvious reason for why that discussion was locked.

I also deal a lot with material specs, but within the world of piping, and then only for transporting

seawater to put out fires.

And to be honest it is a minefield and quite easy to make mistakes or misquotes if

you are not personally involved in material seletion.

[FridgeFreezer]

makes sense to me to lock that thred- as you said yourselfit had run it's course

Surely if it's run its course, it can just fall off the end of the page like every other thread that's run its course. Locking threads is, IMHO, usually only used to stop a stupid bun-fight that's going round in circles or descending into name-calling.

[BogMonster]

Not sure exactly who locked it (I don't mod this forum) but it seems that in one way or another three of the four above posters think the thread had run its course and/or should be locked before it descended into name calling and "my dads bigger than yours" so what is the problem?

I think though that this thread has now run it's course and there is nothing more to be gained by adding to anything you have said in your extensive post.

sums it up nicely

I guess sometimes locking a useful thread before it deteriorates is a bit like putting your favourite dog down before it starts dribbling and ****ing on the carpet, its a fine judgement not to do it either too early or too late!

[Dave W]

It does seem a bit strange to lock it, kind of glad it was as I hadn't read it until Lara posted this topic so would have missed an interesting read

[Lara]

Hi,

Well the problem is that although the thread had run it's course, we are being "told" "no more posts"

The thread was one of generally good standards, people had things to say and things were answered "vise versa" nothing wrong with an interesting thread like this.

and I feel that maybe someone asked for the closing?

Or do we lock "all" dead posts??

Lara.

[V8 Freak]

Why not stop questioning what the Mods and Admin do, and live with it.....

They are in control, do a great job and one of them made a decision to lock it... Job done.

Maybe there were other posts that we didn't see that were already deleted / moderated and as such the thread was in need of closing.

If this thread just turns out to be "Why do mods do this" then expect this one to be closed too.....

Neil

(Happy with they way things are....)

[SteveG]

I guess sometimes locking a useful thread before it deteriorates is a bit like putting your favourite dog down before it starts dribbling and ****ing on the carpet, its a fine judgement not to do it either too early or too late!

This is easy - dribbling is tolerable, but if it s**ts on the carpet, put it down immediately.