najw Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I have come up with an idea/design for a new type of winch sail which I believes deals with the common faults of the traditional 'vest' type. Specifically it will... Stay where you put it on the rope Not slide downhill Not get sucked into the fairlead/winch Allow the rope to slide though it when it reaches the fairlead Be highly visible Can be removed easily when needed Can be left on the rope whilst competing Is easily washable Should last forever (no guarantees implied) So how much would you (sensibly) expect to pay for such a wonderful new product? I have costs for tooling/prototypes/initial stock but need to find out if it is a financially viable exercise, bearing in mind I am not a charity!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 £25-30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Wow! That sounds absolutely perfect. I hope you manage to achieve your aims. Price wise I agree with Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
najw Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 Without wishing to influence your suggestions, please compare with THIS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orgasmic Farmer Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Overpriced liability and an accident waiting to happen! (EDIT.... not just the one you link to but all of that type of sail on the market!) If you can solve it Neil and still make mony selling at the £30 mark I reckon you will clean up. If it has to cost more to work then sobeit but that will automatically lead to all the arguements as to whether we really need them or not with plasma etc...... Let us know if it is a goer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smo Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I would think the ideal price point is £25 to make people change from what they have, sounds like a good product on paper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Wightman Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 £30 sounds reasonable, most will need 2 though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I agree £29.99 is a good price point for things like that. Need a retail outlet? Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Wightman Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I agree £29.99 is a good price point for things like that.Need a retail outlet? Si What if they're orange Si? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJ101 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 As per elsewhere Neil What's the cost of a winch sail now, ?? £20-£25 ??,, so would think, for something as described that worked £25-£35 ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Having brought 4 of these things it will need to be "different" to spend another £60 or so much more and I think it could wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 If UK events were to adopt the Australian system, none of the listed "faults" with current sails would exist, at least for synthetic ropes. The rules AWDC run for all ropes only apply to wire ropes under CCDA regs although the CCDA regs are slightly more practical in the way they are laid out. It's good that someone has an idea to resolve the problems brought about by, IMV, ill judged regulations. Better to change the regulations though if the regulations are impractical or are, even worse, putting crew members into more danger than is necessary. Changing the regs would mean that the current sails everyone has bought would work just fine in a competition environment although it would also dramatically reduce the demand for an alternative product being promoted by one of the event organisers. But to answer the original question I'd pay £30 for a design that made life easier... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saley Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 2010 is a long way away so why make us use/pay for blankets we don't need to buy until then let us run without them until we need to i used 3 winch blankets last year £60 ish it costs enough to compete with fuel /brakeages/new rules/fuel valves /new seat belts etc. without things we don't need to have for another year or two, i am sure everyone who competes will agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothy Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I used 3 last yeay also, but gained 1 back (always pen your name on them, top tip 2009), so would be prepared to pay £25'ish, but must also add that Saley's idea of using a football is a belter and cannot see a reason why not, especially when there's some school football fields where I work and were constantly bombarded with new sail's all day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I used 3 last yeay also, but gained 1 back (always pen your name on them, top tip 2009), so would be prepared to pay £25'ish, but must also add that Saley's idea of using a football is a belter and cannot see a reason why not, especially when there's some school football fields where I work and were constantly bombarded with new sail's all day. It's called a winch sail because it's surface area is designed to provide wind resistance. A football has hardly any wind resistance so would be pretty useless as a winch sail. Most footballs are also far too light to act as a winch damper. Winch sails should weigh about 1kg when dry and measure 900mm x 500mm (450x500 when folded over the line), most commercial ones meet or exceed this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicks90 Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I used 3 last yeay also, but gained 1 back (always pen your name on them, top tip 2009), so would be prepared to pay £25'ish, edited to add - removed idea as i'm going to look into it and dont want scrapiron uk/eu/worldwide/ltd/plc/inc or anyone else to steal the idea. if anyone did read it before edited - idea is registered intellectual property of violetinspiredproducts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I agree with others Neil, sounds VVV interesting and I'd be buying 1 or 2 methinks Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headhunter Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Orange is the new colour for Community Service Offenders high vis vests, which they now have to wear, so we can all see their good efforts being put into practice. Would you now wear an orange one? It's a real shame that from now on anything orange will have a criminal connotation. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan kemp Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I carry 3 winch sails but allways seem to loose one (or have it lifted off the back of the truck). £25 each seems fair enough, the devon/ARB ones seem to be overpriced to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobbymogs Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 It's called a winch sail because it's surface area is designed to provide wind resistance. A football has hardly any wind resistance so would be pretty useless as a winch sail. Most footballs are also far too light to act as a winch damper. Winch sails should weigh about 1kg when dry and measure 900mm x 500mm (450x500 when folded over the line), most commercial ones meet or exceed this. so what about the heavy orange things with velcro that Andy T supplies ive found them to be pretty good but arent the conventional "sail" type but is the sail going to to make that much difference Nobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow White Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 If it works as well as it is advertised then I would have a couple for £30 each. However as with most things in this game, waiting for version 2 (or 3) is sometimes a better bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 so what about the heavy orange things with velcro that Andy T supplies ive found them to be pretty good but arent the conventional "sail" type but is the sail going to to make that much differenceNobby First off, I'll say that I'm less than convinced that there is any need at all for winch "sails" on synthetic rope, it's the equivalent of buying a "baby on board" sticker for your car IMV BUT... IF you are of the opinion that winch sails make any contribution to safety then you have to look at their intended use. If the sail is simply a weight on the line then you have to wonder just how much influence or advantage (safety wise) you're going to get from it. It's main purpose in life is to slow a rope down and it can't do that simply by weight alone. On the contrary a weight on it's own could be far more dangerous once the rope has accelerated that weight. Have you ever seen a conventional recovery rope break with a shackle on the end ? I've seen shackles go through a wind screen when a rope broke (conventional recovery rope, not winching). If all the winch "sail" is is a weight to add to the line I don't think it'll make a blind bit of difference to either the trajectory or the speed of a rope that has been subjected to several tons (mass wise) and has snapped as a result. On the contrary, adding any weight to the rope could well be seen as an added danger as the weight itself could cause injury if it is propelled at someone. If weight alone is sufficient then why not just put a D shackle in the middle of the rope ? By having a decent surface area a winch sail is designed to reduce the whipping action that you see when a wire rope breaks, as the rope snakes sideways the weight of the sail doesn't have much of an effect but the wind resistance of the sail can, in theory, slow the rope down and reduce the chance of injury. When a synthetic rope breaks it behaves differently to a wire rope due to the way the energy is stored and the way that they break. They don't "fall to the ground" normally, what they do is propel themselves at great speed towards the anchor (as most breakages seem to happen at the fairlead). I've seen, maybe, 20 synthetic rope breakages in competition and they have always followed the same path regardless of whether or not a winch sail was in use. If a winch sail was used then the sail ends up at the anchor point with the rope. The thing that impressed me most about the CCDA decision was that, to me at least, it was blindingly obvious once it'd been pointed out to me When a synthetic rope breaks it will fly along the line of the pull, give or take a couple of feet either side. If the hook comes away from the anchor point though you will have a hook flying towards the vehicle at great speed. Rather than rely on a winch sail somewhere between the half way point and the vehicle, attach the sail directly to the hook as that is the most dangerous object should it fly. With no floating winch sail to worry about there is no reason at all for a navi to be close to the rope at any time whilst winching so he/she is well out of the firing line if the rope breaks. IIRC the CCDA regs forbid a navi within 1 metre of a live rope under tension. As a bonus, the CCDA method removes the need for a navi to carry the winch sail and makes it nearly impossible for the sail to be eaten by the fairlead. It ensures that the sail is always used and makes the whole thing much more practical for competition use as the navi can effectively forget about it and get on with the job in hand. It should also prevent sails getting lost during the event, one less piece of kit to worry about collecting up after a pull. I've not seen the thing that Andy T is supplying so not sure what it is... but with due deference to Andy, if I have to use a sail I'd rather it was a sail rather than a weight. Having said that, there are always enough midges about in Scotland to slow any rope down as it flies through the air I wonder if we could interest a show like Mythbusters in testing the effect of winch sails on wire and synthetic rope when it breaks... they could stand their test dummy next to the hook and measure the impact or see if a wire rope really can decapitate someone, all in the name of science, obviously. None of us really want to see a navi decapitated, even for entertainment purposes. Change the rules to make a sail more practical and there's no need to design a sail that tries to get around the problems caused by the rules. Why are competitors bending over backwards to try and accommodate rules that have never been shown to make any sense or contribute to safety ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robhybrid Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 mythbusters did do a show on wire winch rope a while ago, they had a pig carcase hanging in direct line with a flying winch rope which they cut whilst it was under tension. The pig suffered at worst severe bruising but certanly no decapitation, in fact the skin was not even cut. I always like to see my winch sail as close as possible to the winch hook as this flying is what I consider to be most dangerous. Obviously there are occasional times where having a sail hanging from the rope allows other people to more clearly see the rope rather than drive/walk over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobbymogs Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 ive seen both steel and synthetic snap and yes steel does make more recoil and will make more of a mess on a person or vehicle but surely there shouldnt be much difference with people having a "sail" to something heavy that slides along the rope Nobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landmannnn Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 First off, I'll say that I'm less than convinced that there is any need at all for winch "sails" on synthetic rope, it's the equivalent of buying a "baby on board" sticker for your car IMV BUT... "Baby on board" is a actually a good idea, it alerts the emergency services in case of an accident that there is an occupant of that car who cannot get out by themselves. "princess on board" or "baby on board, please back off" are complete rubbish however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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