DVLA - Engine change and thinking ahead

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Righty All,

As some may know I Have just bought a new to me ex JED 5.2V8 Special engine

John Eales builds these engines form new tested blocks and as such there is no engine number from the factory

I have sorted out the insurance compnay (They laughed - came back with a great deal tho ) but

once built and fittd to the 90 I am going to have to advise them that the engine number / CC is chnaged

Now, this engine was / is built from a new CASTING, as such no engine number, I am not going to post up

here the engine number for it but the system JED uses is CC (52) year (2 digits) and then the number of engines

in this category for this year he has built and which number this one is, hence I end up with a number of

520XXXX

Now, how tricky is this going to be with DVLA ?

This sort of CC and engine No for a Rover V8 "Doesn't Exist" ?

Thoughts and experience here would be useful, that means that if you giving your opinion or guessing then don't

post up I need info from those people who have expereince either 1st or 2nd hand with any pain in this area with DVLA

Not best guesses or what you think should be the case - DVLA are a minefield and what you might think is reasonable is

not at times it seems and logic can vanish - and hence this post

Mr JED is also willing to help, saying eactly the above - built by him new block numbered by him, unique number etc and

I also have a bill of sale with said number from seller I bought from

Thoughts ?

Nige

[western]

Just put the new details on the V5 amemdmemt area, best to speak to your nearest VRO office first to check what DVLA will want to see document wise.

Doesn't matter if the engine numbers is not a LR unit,

what matters is a traceable serial number -- which you will have once the engine is built up & installed & enclose the requested documents showing new capacity/supplier.

DVLA may require a headed letter from a garage/recognised [trade] engineer stating the installed 'new' engine is safely fitted,

I had to send a letter in when I changed my cars engine [long before I bought my 110] asked the local Rover garage to check it over & they did a letter confirming it was a safe install/vehicle for use on public highways.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Thats encoraging Mr W

I had also heard DVLA have tighten "A Lot" and where a nightmare of engine / number chnages etc ?

Nige

[Ratty43]

I work on classics and have no trouble changing engine numbers, the last one within the last month, the capacity remained the same but the engine was not of a prefix and serial number fitted to the model. If you change the capacity I believe they require proof of capacity from the garage fitting the engine, provided on headed paper.

[Quagmire]

One of the guys on v8forum built an engine from a spanking new 4.6 block- he just stamped his own number on (not sure how he came up with his) and he had no problems, that's fitted to a cobra replica...

*edit- so what i mean to say is, you should be ok

[FridgeFreezer]

Should be no problem, my engine is factory recon and has no number and the DVLA have never had an issue. FL engine is also numberless. Just tell 'em it's a recon lump with no number.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Hmmmm

So,

Why am I hearing of 1st hand nightmares with DVLA - over legitimate engine changes / CCs / Numbers etc ?

Nige

[martifers]

I hope i'm not hijacking your thread Nige, however, I am also thinking ahead for a change of engine DVLA meeting. I bought a 300 Tdi from a landy breaker a number of years ago but have no receipt for it and can't guarantee it's origin unfortunately. I am being very pessimistic here but I want to cover myself before I contact the DVLA. The build is still ongoing and won't be on the road until next year but thought to ask now while a hot topic. It is a standard 300 replacing a 2.25 petrol but wondered what the options were and the possible outcomes of doing so. When I contact the DVLA to inform them of the engine change, do I... 1. Give them the engine number and hope for the best (what are the repercussions if the engine number is registered as one from a stolen vehicle?) or 2. Register it with no engine number 'engine number unknown', is this still possible?

Regards

Sharpie

[FridgeFreezer]

It's mostly in how you explain it to them, remember they're a bunch of shaved monkeys in a call centre ticking boxes on their computer - so certain words and phrases spook them and send you down the path of doom and stress, but if you help them along onto the path of righteousness they're happy and you're happy.

For example:

"Awight mista, I iz modified me motah wiv a well wikkid massive tuned V8, chopped it about a bit and shorhorned it in, well mental it is, aint gotta number onnit or nuffink so just leave it blank yeah, makes life easier next time round innit?"

Is going to doom you - all they hear is "blah blah blah modified blah blah tuned blah chopped blah blah no engine number blah blah serial killer blah blah blah". As soon as they hear "modified", "tuned", and any other words you are likely to find in Max Power they get all excitable and jobsworth. Once they have decided that this sounds like the sort of chav deathtrap that VOSA should be going over with a fine tooth comb they are not going to entertain anything other than feeding your V5 into the shredder along with your family jewels if they could.

But:

"Hello Mr nice DVLA person, can you help me, I've replaced the engine in my car with a reconditioned unit, it's a direct replacement for the original, unfortunately being a factory recon it's a later unit with more CC but it is a direct bolt-in replacement for the original. Being recon it has no engine number, I have all the paperwork from the engine company and can send you a pictures of both units if needed. I want to make sure I'm all legal for the MOT and insurance and whatnot so if you can update the engine number and CC so it's all straight that would be super lovely"

Is likely to result in much more co-operation as you are soothing their troubles by reassuring them that this is a mere maintenance operation such as a main dealer might do if an engine is beyond repair, using a slightly later part which supercedes your old one ("well I'd love to have been able to buy a low comp 3.5 instead but you just can't get them these days, it's the emissions you know, the later 5.2 is much greener..."), the slightest suggestion that this is in any way an alteration or modification should be highly offensive to a law-abiding enthusiast and purist such as yourself. Stressing your deep desire to maintain absolute legality for their brethren in the MOT station and traffic police reassures them that you are a good citizen of unwavering morality and demonstrates that the thing may even go for an MOT.

Social engineering is a fascinating and powerful thing you know

[jbs]

When I changed the engine in my 90 to another 200 tdi from turners and let the DVLA know I had to provide the DVLA with a copy of the receipt from turners and also it had to have the engine number on it

HTH

John

[Dave W]

I had a 3.9 block without any serial numbers on it. I believe there were a lot of them around from when LR were replacing blocks under warranty. I've come across 3 or 4 of them myself.

Anyway, I was shipping my motor out to Australia which means undergoing a customs inspection where they check that the number stamped on the engine matches the number on the documents (V5 and carnet). No engine number would give me all sorts of problems so I just made up my own number with two letters (my initials) and 4 digits and stamped it into the block.

DVLA were quite happy to change the number on the V5 without querying it. Customs in Australia and UK were perfectly happy and passed the vehicle both ways and stamped the carnet (or whatever they do to it).

Since then (this year) the engine was fitted into another vehicle and, again, no problem at all changing the V5 on that vehicle either.

[ThreeSheds]

A quick search produced this from DVLA web site:

Change to engine and cylinder capacity (engine size)

DVLA will need written evidence of any changes to engine number and cylinder capacity (cc). Written evidence can be:

• a receipt for the replacement engine
• written evidence from the manufacturer
• an inspection report provided for insurance purposes
• written confirmation on headed paper from a garage if the change in engine size took place before you bought the vehicle

When I did mine recently I was informed at the local DVLA office, that the required evidence can be any or all of the top three (which in your case, can all be easily achieved). The requirement to have the engine number on the cocumentation is not stated, but would be expected. He also said that the system was undergoing change and will be getting tighter as it becomes software (rather than common-sense) controlled. At no time did he mention checking the validity of the new engine number and I didn't ask.

In my case I had no engine number on the receipt for my 2nd hand unit and I just sent the registration document in with the changes section filled in and a note saying that it was a like-for-like engine, and I got it back (no questions asked, but not without hassle, see below) about 6 weeks later.

Even the chap in the DVLA (whose job is to check that changes are filled in correctly before you submit them) admitted that there is currently no hard and fast rule, so IMHO (and I know you want facts not opinions), you should:

1. Do it sooner rather than later.

2. Send copies of all the evidence you have.

3. Send a short supporting note.

4. Just be honest and tell it like it is.

5. (This applies to anything DVLA related) Make copies of any docs you send in case they get lost.

One final point - the DVLA have no document logging process so they are unable to say whether your docs have even been received - don't expect any news for 4 to 6 weeks. In the end I requested a replacement log book thinking mine had got lost, but then they sent me two - both with the new engine number on!

Roger

[Maverik]

It's mostly in how you explain it to them, remember they're a bunch of shaved monkeys in a call centre ticking boxes on their computer - so certain words and phrases spook them and send you down the path of doom and stress, but if you help them along onto the path of righteousness they're happy and you're happy.

For example:

"Awight mista, I iz modified me motah wiv a well wikkid massive tuned V8, chopped it about a bit and shorhorned it in, well mental it is, aint gotta number onnit or nuffink so just leave it blank yeah, makes life easier next time round innit?"

Is going to doom you - all they hear is "blah blah blah modified blah blah tuned blah chopped blah blah no engine number blah blah serial killer blah blah blah". As soon as they hear "modified", "tuned", and any other words you are likely to find in Max Power they get all excitable and jobsworth. Once they have decided that this sounds like the sort of chav deathtrap that VOSA should be going over with a fine tooth comb they are not going to entertain anything other than feeding your V5 into the shredder along with your family jewels if they could.

But:

"Hello Mr nice DVLA person, can you help me, I've replaced the engine in my car with a reconditioned unit, it's a direct replacement for the original, unfortunately being a factory recon it's a later unit with more CC but it is a direct bolt-in replacement for the original. Being recon it has no engine number, I have all the paperwork from the engine company and can send you a pictures of both units if needed. I want to make sure I'm all legal for the MOT and insurance and whatnot so if you can update the engine number and CC so it's all straight that would be super lovely"

Is likely to result in much more co-operation as you are soothing their troubles by reassuring them that this is a mere maintenance operation such as a main dealer might do if an engine is beyond repair, using a slightly later part which supercedes your old one ("well I'd love to have been able to buy a low comp 3.5 instead but you just can't get them these days, it's the emissions you know, the later 5.2 is much greener..."), the slightest suggestion that this is in any way an alteration or modification should be highly offensive to a law-abiding enthusiast and purist such as yourself. Stressing your deep desire to maintain absolute legality for their brethren in the MOT station and traffic police reassures them that you are a good citizen of unwavering morality and demonstrates that the thing may even go for an MOT.

Social engineering is a fascinating and powerful thing you know

Haha, brilliant. you should write a book, "Social interaction for Engineers"

[Aragorn]

While the rules state your supposed to supply receipts etc, when i changed the engine in the A4 in january i just sent off the V5 with the new number on and nothing else. No receipt, no note, just the V5 in an envelope.

It came back a few weeks later all updated with no hassle.

So clearly they dont even follow their own rules!

You've got all the documentation, including a letter from the engine manufacturer stating the number. So even if they do ask for the documentation your well and truly covered.

[FridgeFreezer]

So clearly they dont even follow their own rules!

Not only that, they will get bored and send you the V5 eventually anyway

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=5046

...and they can't hold onto their documents:

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=52250

...and will take the word of car clubs:

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=38903

...and their mail system and SORN doesn't stand up in court:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/03/dvla_court/

[jbs]

While the rules state your supposed to supply receipts etc, when i changed the engine in the A4 in january i just sent off the V5 with the new number on and nothing else. No receipt, no note, just the V5 in an envelope.It came back a few weeks later all updated with no hassle.So clearly they dont even follow their own rules!You've got all the documentation, including a letter from the engine manufacturer stating the number. So even if they do ask for the documentation your well and truly covered.

Seeing as it is a land rover engine then Yes I can see how this could've happened-But perhaps they're clamping down because of all the thefts of them when I went to change my engine numbers over on my V5,and your average eurobox is'nt quite as steal-able and engines are normally one of those parts easily nicked and sold to an unsuspecting person

John

[Jon White]

Good luck!!! Give me a ring and I'll explain - had great fun with DVLA with this when I stuck the TDI in mine!

Jon

[Ryan]

I recently changed the engine number on my V5. I filled in the amended details, added a covering letter, and a copy of the invoice from Turners. I was also having the weight amended as it was incorrect, so I included a photo of the VIN plate.

Five to six weeks later, Robert's your father's brother, new V5 through the post, no questions

[jonost24]

In 1999 when I built a Westfield, I had a 1700 xflow with no number. I had a receipt from the guy I bought it off. At the time I had to put the car through the SVA. I just thought of a number (kids birthdays), got some number stamps from work and stamped it into the lug on the top of the block. Filled the paperwork out, SVA'd no problem.

[missingsid]

Hi Nige,

TVR just stamped over the old Rover numbers and they all got documents issued.

Fist time I say it I didn't want to buy the car.

Marc.