Lorrick Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Any Chemists out there Something I came across as I was looking into building one,was a hydrogen generator as there are a lot of dealers in the US Raving about it and a local car dealer I met was running his recovery truck with one and was saying how good it was. You can see them on Web pages they are a small Hydrogen generator kit that fits in the engine bay and through Electrolysis makes around 3 Liters of Hydrogen and Oxygen a minuet that is then fed into the air intake. Looking at the Chemistry side of life as they say it should make the fuel burn more cleanly and more efficiently , and improve performance and mpg, not a lot but some. Has anyone out there used or look into this system, and advice welcome Regards Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrtod Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 I'm no expert so this is little more than a guess but the amount of hydrogen and oxygen produced will be in exactly the right ratio to react back into water again. Therefore I don't see how any more diesel will burned by the addition of extra oxygen as the hydrogen will use it up. That is unless perhaps the reaction changes the temperature/pressure of the combustion chamber thus causing the diesel to burn more efficiently. If that was the case you would expect car manufacturers to use this effect themselves to increase efficiency and reduce emissions. Since they do not, then I will only believe this works when I see some hard evidence. Till then it's snake oil. Only my opinion though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashtray Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me, very explosive mixture. I'm afraid you're trying to make free energy here, which doesn't exist, it requires just as much energy in electrical form, if not more to split water into it's elements, therefore you shouldn't be gaining any energy. Energy is never created nor is it lost, it can only change state, fuel is stored energy, it is burnt to create thermal energy and the internal combustion engine turns this into kinetic energy, along with a lot of wasted heat and sound energy. If it's such a good idea, why havnt car manufacturers already implemented such a device Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 It uses electrolysis... This uses electricity which has to come from somewhere. So the engine is making energy, to make energy, to give it energy back? You don't get something from nothing!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 - BOOM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harle Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 It certainly sounds like an interesting idea. Indeed, much more of technically rational concept for improving efficiency than one of the ridiculous (IMO) Hi-Clone 'swirler things'. I don’t agree with some of the previous comments which say that it won’t work because the law of conservation of energy says it won’t. Although, I’m not saying it will work. It’s about balancing the equations. The diesel that runs through my Defender’s engine most certainly doesn’t undergo stoichiometric combustion (or anywhere close) therefore, energy is wasted on non-useful energy transfer. Assuming that the addition of H2 to the mixture increases combustion efficiency, then it is plausible that the energy gain from increased useful energy transfer is greater than the increased electrical load. My suggestion would be to obtain some of the SAE papers cited in this Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement. At least that way you may be able to assess the extent to which you will increase efficiency from a (supposedly) impartial source, as a pose to the marketed BS from these American suppliers (I’m sure I saw 50-100% improvement claimed on one of the sites! ) Skimming through some of the sources, I would suggest that you would have to be prepared to play with fuel:air mixtures to achieve best results. Onto more practical considerations - What’s the engine that this will be fitted to? What kind of efficiency is expected from the electrolysis? And how would this modification affect insurance? I’d be genuinely interested in hearing the details of your setup and results, and by all means prove these snake oil cynics wrong. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosecon Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 From Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy) I got the following info: "...Electrolysis of water Hydrogen can be made via high pressure electrolysis or low pressure electrolysis of water. Current best processes have an efficiency of 50% to 80%,[21][22][23] so that 1 kg of hydrogen (which has an energy density of 143 MJ/kg, about 40 kWh/kg) requires 50 to 79 kWh of electricity..." I understand that in order to produce 1 Kilo of H2 I have to spend 50-79KWh. This is from the car alternator and it consumes fuel to produce this electricity. This 1 kilo of H2 gives me 40KWh...therefore I am loosing energy. BUT there is a big BUT. A car can produce "cheap" electricity when the engine is braking the car (the engine is rotating with no fuel consumption, which causes the alternator to rotate and produce electricity for almost free). So it this is not a straight answer. I guess it is a very sophisticated calculation or a try and error thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
q-rover Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Your better off fitting a Flux capacitor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Now, as this isn't really a Defender specific question I'm moving this thread to the International. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco_al Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Your better off fitting a Flux capacitor. or an electric supercharger........ hat coat door...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorrick Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 Tried the Flux Capacitor rote one before in 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I don’t agree with some of the previous comments which say that it won’t work because the law of conservation of energy says it won’t. Although, I’m not saying it will work. so do we file this one with black holes, dark matter.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superpants Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 This seems to be one of the most perpetual snake oil myths. Plenty of science here: Snake Oil More oily snakes Yet more of those pesky snakes covered in oil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I thought bullsh** gave off methane not hydrogen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorrick Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 I only asked, as forgetting about the electrical side of it, would a mix of Hydrogen and Oxygen mixing with the fuel make it burn more effectively and efficiently ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 This has come up before with everyone dismissing it as snake oil - there is however something in it. I wonder if this time anyone will bother to read this. Yes - the energy produced by burning the H2 and O2 in the engine will be less that than required to generate it in the first place. BUT!.... The flammable gas in the air charge improves the time taken for the diesel spray to burn - therefore producing a more complete burn of the diesel injected. This is where the extra power comes from - not from the calorific value of the H2 and O2. However - you will only get a gain in power over a very small rev range, and only on a suitable engine, an early DI engine for example, where swirl is very poor. An automotive version to fit to your car however - is most likely snake oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 You inject water into the system helps mop up all sorts of unburnt hydrocarbons and other bits. I've not looked at the chemistry for some time, I know they play with water mist injection on marine diseal engines to mostly improve the NOX and SOX, which is rather substantial for heavy fuel engines. Marine diesels are on the fore front of efficiency gains, I'm not sure anyone has created anything over 49% thermaly efficient, most automotive engines are around 40% It all depends on what you're looking at - certainly for improving efficiency, this is a given that you wont be able to improve the efficiecy of a standard factory engine, you can make it more "economical" different cheaper fuel (veg oil) it will cost you less but make your system holey less efficient. - I might have slipped off topic, but hey ho. Mav Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmeanie Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I've got a friend here in Switzerland who fitted one to a 4.0L Merc diesel in a van. No computers or anything, just a simple mechanical injection pump. It has had sweet DA effect on fuel consumption. He thinks the engine runs smoother buts that's it. The supplier snake oil merchant now says he needs to fit a reostat to control the rate of hydrogen production as it varies relative to engine rpm and the solution strength in the generator. He is suposed to twiddle the knob to optimize the hydrogen generation as he drives. Oh, that didn't work either so now it needs to go in for 'tuning' as his engine has no computer to sense the changes and optimize the timing etc. That's a hell of a lot of tuning to go from no effect to the claimed 30% fuel saving. Oh but he's sold it to LOTS of truckers who are raving about it - apparently quietly to thmeselves and not in a public forum - and not providing any recorded fuel consumption data. No one ever has the data just a 'Oh it gives a 30% improvement.' every time. Its fun to listen to but utter BS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Range Rover Blues Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 It's not about the energy that comes form reacting hydrogen and ogen, it's how the hydrogen (brown's gas IICRC) reacts with the deisel. Bosch have spent some considerable money researching this over the last few years, though I don't know how far they got, at a place on the Science and technology park in town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I've just found something even better - same savings but much simpler install! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230664620273 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I have 4 cigarette lighter sockets, that would work a treat! Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 WTF... My God, it's even on Amazon, capacitor? A flux one sir? http://www.amazon.co.uk/NeoSocket-Fuel-Economise-Saver/dp/B002RZ892M :headinhands: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Looks like summit you'd give the wife/gf on those cold winter nights when "we" are out fixing our beloved machines... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJRH Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Interesting there is no feedback for that Ebay seller for one of those things, but looking through his feedback I see he sells hamburgers that are speakers as well! Mini Hamburger Speaker For iPhone 4G iPod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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