kingrat Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Just thinking about this as the work to install correctly on the td5 is minimal. The pressure output is 135 bar so should be up to it. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 You need flow rate too, doubt it will be up to much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacr2man Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Not a cat in hells chance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 It will turn the winch - but very slowly! The same goes for any other electric / hydraulic power pack. The problem is that each time you convert from one type of energy to another, you loose a certain amount as heat. The conversion from mechanical to hydraulic and back is particularly inefficient. Like an electric winch, you have one conversion from electric to mechanical - but then you are adding another conversion on top. To give a similar pull and line speed to an electric winch, you would probably need a motor with 3x the power. I doubt the motor driving the ACE is even as big as a typical winch motor and I doubt it's continuously rated either. The end result would be a winch which runs about 1/10 the speed of a typical electric with a motor prone to burning out when you least need it! I've used a number of electric hydraulic PAS pumps for different things. Their motors are about 1hp which is fine for steering and moving suspension around - but not for a winch unless you have a lot of patience! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I doubt the motor driving the ACE is even as big as a typical winch motor and I doubt it's continuously rated either. Is the ACE pump not powered directly by either a 2.5l Turbo diesel or a 4.0l V8 petrol? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 It'll be driven constantly, but not necessarily delivering full pressure all the time. Or if it will deliver full pressure constantly, there may not be enough cooling in the system to stop the oil getting damaged. You'ld likely finish up with a winch that could pull as well as any, but be really really slow. Pumps are rated in cc/rev or litres per min. It's this flow that affects winch speed. I wouldn't say the conversion from mechanical to hydraulic and back is particularly inefficient as a general statement. It's just that 4x4 market isn't buying expensive 95% efficient pumps and motors But I bet ACE is a low spec, low efficiency pump. And certainly less powerfull than the power steering pump, which is a also a bit slow on a winch. (And hot running) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I thought ACE was engine driven - but I also doubt the flow rate is up to much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingrat Posted December 21, 2011 Author Share Posted December 21, 2011 Thanks guys, I just wondered as it would need no modding to fit to the engine. I'd better keep an eye out on fleabay for a pto winch or pto driven hydro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Give Malcolm Whitbread a ring as well. He may be able to help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilloverland Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Now this is an interesting question. I had a milemarker winch on my 110 which ran off a zf74 power steering pump. Whilst not up to winch challenges it was more than enough for recovering at pay and play sites or greenlaning. I now have a D2 and when I eventually kit it out I would much prefer the MM winch over any electric winch. As mentioned above, its the flow rate and pressure which counts and I'll look into it. I'd be interested if you find anything out before I do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilloverland Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Regarding the ace pump: Workshop manual, Disco 2, Front Suspension, Description & Operation, Description - ACE, Page 60 - 13, or 1012 of 1783. "The fluid flow varies with the engine speed and the rotational speed of the central shaft. The pressure felt at the actuator, created by the flow from the pump, is controlled by the pressure control valve in the valve block. The pump has a displacement of 8.5 cm 3 /rev and an operational pressure of 135 bar (1958 lbf.in 2 ). The pump output flow ranges from 7.0 l/min (1.85 US Gallons/min) at 775 rev/min to 9.25 l/min (2.44 US Gallons/min) at 7625 rev/min." So I reckon that although it would be slow, it would work - My theory being that the pulling power of the winch is determined by the pressure of the fluid, which the ACE pump gives more than enough. But the linespeed of that pull would be slow because the flow rate isn't high enough (linespeed being determinned by flow rate, hence the PTO pumps used in the MM type R winch on the first four website). Hopefully someone who knows more about fluid mechanics will come along and correct me if Im wrong... _________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilloverland Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Or - The other way to do this would be to remove the ACE pump and see if a ZF74 could be mounted in its place with a pully to suit. Having never looked closely at an ACE pump or its mountings I don't know if it would be feasable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 If you can flat-mount it, a hydraulic pump with a clutch is ideal. We used one of these on Escape's P38a: http://www.flowfitonline.com/acatalog/ELECTROMAGNETIC_CLUTCH_AND_PUMP_ASSEMBLIES.html It was put where the A/C pump used to be. I don't recall exactly what flow pump he used (I think 15 L/min?), but it was selected to be within the limits of the serpentine belt. The winch isn't the fastest in the world, but it works very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Going by those specs, the ACE-pump has similar characteristics to the ZF74, i.e. with increased rotational speed, flow is bled off, limiting pumping losses at high engine revs. The ZF74 does offer more flow (12-13l/min IIRC). I use a 8cc/rev pump, geared to run slightly faster then the engine. This gives about 7-8l/min at idle, up to 25l/min when I increase engine revs because of the lineair pump characteristic. Which is why you need a clutch to disengage the pump and limit power loss and heat build up when not winching. The serpentine belt can handle this just fine, I've used it in anger crawling up a riverbank somewhere in Russia, didn't miss a beat despite water upto bonnet height. Speed is sufficient, slow enough for control and fast enough for respooling by revving and/or high gear. I do use a MM type R motor on my winch, with less displacement than the standard motor. It is designed to operate at higher pressures and my pump supplies up to 300bar. With a standard motor, the 135bar will be enough, but it will be quite slow. Interesting project, I'll be following it closely! Filip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothy Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 We put 3 brand new (so called) ZF74 pumps on flow rigs and never gotmore than 8.5 litres min, a big claim that 12-13.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 all of this vs a class 2 hydraulic pump doing +- 30 - 40 litres / min. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Yup "Thing' on the front of my 90 specs say Max of 70 lpm and pto gives only 32 - so its slower than it could be and thasts with a known lpm hydro winchs need big Pressures and high flow rates Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingrat Posted December 29, 2011 Author Share Posted December 29, 2011 Increasing the gearing and adding a clutch could be done I think. The clutch would be an easy addition. I think at the end of March it will be time to have a serious look at this. It will also give me time to source a cheap ACE pump and clutch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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