eastw77 Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Hi Guys, I have been reading on forums in the US and Aus about their opinions on dislocating suspensions. They seem to think that they make the truck very unstable and in serious risk of rolling over! They claim retained spring are better. As alot of you guys run these suspensions I was wondering if there was any truth to it? example - http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=980255 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastw77 Posted June 16, 2012 Author Share Posted June 16, 2012 This one is very entertaining... http://www.landroversonly.com/forums/f17/springs-retention-cones-13676/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 I've not read those threads fully as I haven't got time at the moment. But from what I can see on pirate4x4 normally it is probably safe to say that they tend to run longer springs/more lift than us in the first place. What is needed (and lacking from so many trucks - mine included to a certain extent) is balance between front and rear articulation. A dislocated spring on its own does not make the truck unstable, its the rest of the package together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbs Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Ok Forgive my ignorance, But what are "cones" Can some shed any light on them please? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 a 'cone' is the bit that guides the spring back on to it's seat bracket, some a just flat strip shaped & others are tubular but wider at the base than the top tubular type as a example http://www.terrafirma4x4.com/products_php.php?cat=1&grp=2 & http://www.extreme4x4.co.uk/acatalog/REAR_DISLOCATION_CONES.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbs Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Thanks Ralph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Bob Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 I don't understand why everyone fannies about with suspension to get more 'droop' other than simple willy waving. You see the people in Australia, who just buy standard vehicles, stick a set of decent tyres and lockers front and rear and that's them set. I'd say the only time you start playng with 12" lifts etc is after you've got actual 4 wheel drive. Otherwise, all you do is change how far down the wheel is when it's spinning. As far as I can tell, while the axle is hanging and there's no spring pushing down on it, the wheel can't get any traction as there's no weight on it. [/can of worms] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Of course there's weight on it, just not a whole lot If it grips enough to stop the wheel from spinning, that's enough to help you along. And even with lockers it may give you that extra little bit of traction you need to stop the other wheel from spinning. The only way I see it being less stable is when the driver is a plonker and has no idea how deep the truck can go if the weight shifts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 I'd say very very soft longer springs are likely to be more unstable than stiffer shorter ones.... Even a very drooped axle does have appreciable weight on it, remember the springs are quite a way inboard of the wheels, so even when one spring is dislocated, the other is still pushing the drooped end of the axle into the ground. It's not just 'dislocated droop', more 'not-quite-so-assisted droop'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 It's not just the force of the springs. The axle and wheels aren't all that light either, plus half of the suspension components... Plus potentially a little force from your gas-filled shocks. You know all those fancy coilover suspensions? They need a "tender coil" to stop the other coils from rattling around. This means there's no weight on them any more, just like with a dislocated setup. Yet there they also go for maximum droop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Absolutely ^^ I was just pointing out that there is still vehicle weight acting on a drooped wheel Axle plus all the periphery must be at least 200Kg, with a lot of challenge trucks the wheel/tyre combo is often 50Kg a corner. I know my 33" Simex are 35-40Kg each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean f Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 As far as stability is concerned the amount of lift and softness of the springs is a far bigger a factor than whether they dislocate or not. The points when they dislocate are almost by definition times when the vehicle is pretty unstable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 As far as stability is concerned the amount of lift and softness of the springs is a far bigger a factor than whether they dislocate or not. The points when they dislocate are almost by definition times when the vehicle is pretty unstable. which is why I wouldn't want to make it any worse. From what I gather, the dislocation idea really only cam about because with bigger wheels you start hitting the wheel arches, so you have to reduce bump. To keep the same amount of travel, you can have more droop, but then the springs dislocate. I am not a believer that dislocation is good for what we do, and as such I have made sure I can achive full bump and the travel looks after itself. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastw77 Posted June 17, 2012 Author Share Posted June 17, 2012 So why do all the guys in competition use these set ups? I don't see how it can be more unstable, especially on sidings, in this instance longer softer springs will make the vehicle just as unstable. From what I read I think the scenario is you are approaching a deep hole on the left. When you drop your front left wheel in the hole the front axle drops down on the left side and the body rolls to the left as well. The rear suspension then dislocates allowing the body to roll further and then the whole lot tips over???Surely with more articulation the body will always be kept more level. Can any one explain the physics behind this theory? Even when the body is leaning over the axle tube is still attached to the chassis via the damper and the weight of the wheel is lower and further outboard relative to the center line than if it was hanging in mid air off the spring. confused... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 It's part of kinetics. The vehicle mass takes time to accelerate. When you nearly roll over at speed the whole vehicle sprung mass is put into a rotation with an energy. The axel plays little part until the high side wheel leaves the ground. At this point the shock has to pull the axel into a rotation, which takes energy away from the body. You hang on two wheels, then settle back on the ground This is very diiferent to actually rolling. And very different to slowly getting more angle until you fall over. Another way to look at it is that the axels lower the centre of gravity. The longer the shocks, the further into a roll you are before the axels help lower the body's centre of gravity. I just fitted new standard length Old Man emu front shocks. I'm not bothered about articulation as I have diff locks both ends, but I will attempt steeper side slopes than other winch challenge trucks because I roll later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruuman Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Well I'm locked front and rear and fitted the gwen lewis hook type cones http://www.gwynlewis4x4.co.uk/page68.html and shock mounts. I didn't notice any difference to on road stability, tows and hard corners fine. Offroad it now gets through area's it needed the rear locker in for. The hooks on the cones act like retaining straps, it seems to stop the wheel travel before the axle gets too light to be of use. Nothing scientific but was one of the cheapest ways to make a noticeable difference. Also the ride offroad is a lot smoother especially over axle twisters. But I can see why people don't like them, I had my doubts but was pleased with the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastw77 Posted June 17, 2012 Author Share Posted June 17, 2012 Well I'm locked front and rear and fitted the gwen lewis hook type cones http://www.gwynlewis....uk/page68.html and shock mounts. I didn't notice any difference to on road stability, tows and hard corners fine. Offroad it now gets through area's it needed the rear locker in for. The hooks on the cones act like retaining straps, it seems to stop the wheel travel before the axle gets too light to be of use. Nothing scientific but was one of the cheapest ways to make a noticeable difference. Also the ride offroad is a lot smoother especially over axle twisters. But I can see why people don't like them, I had my doubts but was pleased with the results. Thats reassuring to hear as I have just bought Gwyns set up only start reading all the bad stuff about dislocation afterwards. I havnt fitted it yet but I'll go ahead and see how it performs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 It's not really bad stuff? Just different stuff You trade one thing against another to get what you want. I have a winch on the front, but now the truck is front heavy, and so on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landy andy. Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Having fitted the Gwyn Lewis kit to mine, I find it much more stable off road, especially in an axle twister situation, as rather than waving wheels in the air, then a sudden transfer of weight, that can not be controlled, I now get a slow very smooth lowering back down to the ground. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverdrive Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Don't know what all the fuss is. As standard the springs are not retained on the top mount ( talking about the rears here ). I did have the spring unseat itself a couple of times in trials, and went the old school way of using a jubilee clip to retain the top of the spring in the cup. All this did was to bent the lower retaining plate, and break the jubilee clip. I then fitted re-location cones, and never had an ounce of bother since. Just my tuppence worth. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Did any of the mods archive the bunfights that went on <cough> years ago when dislocation cones first appeared, Gon2Far / WhitePeak and that sort of stuff? It was back when this forum was LRE... All this stuff got asked/discussed, a few people even actually *tried* it to *prove* how things really worked but of course they mostly got shouted down if any of it's still in the archives it could save a fresh bunfight prove informative and instructional Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robhybrid Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 when people say they don't need longer articulation because they have lockers they don't realize that using lockers in a situation where open diffs and better articulation would do the same job they are forcing their drive train to do double the amount of work. I believe that slightly firmer dislocating springs are more stable than long soft springs as the spring is not trying to push you over when you are on a slope. Remember articulation is not fully governed by the spring but has factors from the dampers(shocks) and suspension geometry not forgetting choice of bush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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