Bowie69 Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 WD40 on the UJs and work them first, then some engine oil to protect after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 I'm running out of things to change now, next up I'm going to do the steering column UJs (£45 each! ) as they've been on there a while and I've heard they can affect self-centreing James don't fall into some bad habits like this! Sorry this is a bit of a bug bare of mine so I'm about to have a rant, don't just change things because "you've heard" or any "old wives tales" - engage brain, have a think about it, possible do some fault finding/testing.... work it out rather than just doing what other people say or do, I know some problems on these trucks get so infuriating to track down that you just want the problem to go away, but stay persistent and logical, its the only way to learn and properly combat knowledge gaps. I've come across this so much in the general car restoration world and it quite frankly does my heed in. I like to think this forum inspires a higher level of thinking other than following what other people say blindly (which I think it does extremely well). Ok rant over apologies, back to the UJ's if they are seized then yes I can see they may effect the self cantering of the steering wheel, but they don't usually just seize tight they actually go notchy, so steering left to right just goes really really lumpy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 To be fair Maverik it's not just based upon hearsay, there is a very very small amount of rotational play in the lower UJ and so changing them both wouldn't hurt as they are the same age. That and also I can't remember where I got them from or what brand they were. Was during my early years of Land Rover ownership before I knew the pitfalls of Britpart et. al. Anyway I do have a few more things I can try first before splashing out on new UJs. The fact that there is now practically no play in the steering whatsoever (you can only get about 1/2" movement at the wheel before the road wheel moves), and the fact that when the wobble occurs it is felt so well through the steering wheel, leads me to suspect that it is not a freeplay issue in some component which is causing this behaviour. I'm now leaning more towards an issue with the geometry (ie. tracking) or the swivel bearings pre-load... The tracking is currently set pretty much dead ahead with the tiniest amount (<1mm or so at each tyre wall) of toe out - using the string method. I will try it set dead straight and then if necessary with a slight amount of toe in. Failing that I will have a garage do it properly with alignment kit to factory spec and see if that helps. As for the swivel bearings, well as I mentioned in the original post they are within range. They are at the lower end of the range though, as I found that even removing the thinnest shim's thickness (ie. increasing the pre-load by the smallest amount possible) was enough to take it from this figure to well over the top of the specified range. I didn't opt for this as I felt it would prematurely wear the bearings, however it may be worth a shot as perhaps my spring balance (which is quite new) is off and they have in fact been set too loose this whole time. I just hope it doesn't kill the bearings, there is no play in them that I can discern from heaving on the wheel. Both of the above are cheap and (relatively) easy to do so I will do those first before changing the steering column UJs (£90 odd) and then finally admitting defeat and swapping out the steering box (££££!). I do have a spare four-bolt box in the garage but not sure if the pipe fittings etc. are compatible with the 6-bolt one currently fitted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotts90 Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 I swapped out the 6 bolt box on the farm 110, it had been on the cards for some time and I knew it wouldn't sneak through the MOT as the play had become a bit much for my liking ( I don't drive it much). Getting to the point, after the new box was installed without the engine running and giving the steering wheel a wiggle would produce visible movement on the wide MTs that are fitted. If you are getting 1/2" movement of the steering before any movement at the wheels with all the other new parts fitted that would lead me to suspect the steering box. FWI, they only do outright on the 6 bolt gemmer, it's not an exchange like the adwest 4bolt units. I paid £230 for a remanufactured unit a few months ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallfry Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Shimmy...............by that do you mean squirming as you drive along, or do you mean bump steer and following wobble for a bit after hitting a pothole of summat ? I can see that wear in bushes and TREs etc would cause clunking, vagueness and wandering needing constant correction, but not wobble as such. Do you have wheel spacers fitted or non standard wheels which have more positive (I think) offset.........stick out more ? These can cause wobble and sensitive steering and also kill self centering. Also look at the wheels themselves to see if any are buckled or eccentric even ? They will still balance up OK though, even though it can cause problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 4, 2014 Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 It's when I hit a rough patch of road (doesn't need to be on a bend) with bumps or holes at speed, the steering jumps and wobbles about. Wheels are standard, Wolf/HD, Land Rover fitment. They're straight as far as I'm aware, will spin them and check for runout next time I have them raised for some reason. I've found the 6-bolt online with an exchange option, Land Rover have a part number for it with the E on the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Sorry for the rant, it was just how I read that post. Any particular reason why you want to replace it with another 6 bolt? or have I picked up the wrong idea. I'm sure I saw an advert on here for a chap selling a nearly new adwest 4 bolt for a very very good price.... I swapped the 6 bolt out for the 4 on my 110 after the feedback issue I had with it, the boxes' are by no means cheap, but for the 2 I've replaced with new, I've never regretted in fact I almost swore if I got any more older trucks with iffy steering I'd just replace the PAS box, as it makes such a difference to the handling. After doing some research last time, it seemed to me that the 6 bolt boxes seemed to have an inherent weakness with part of the feedback torsion valve arrangement, if this isn't working properly it has a tendency to want to overcompensate at certain times, giving a strange wobble feeling. I managed a strange simulation of steering wobble when my track rod got nipped by the armoured under tray it has, if you turned the steering wheel quickly in either direction (both wheel jacked off the floor) it caused the steering to start to oscillate, as soon as I took the pressure of the track rod it was fine, it appeared to be only a small amount of resistance on the steering rod that caused this to happen (newish PAS box with 20k on it) Having a constant resistance at one end and then almost a shock load on the steering seemed to cause it issues... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanuki Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 It'd be worth checking the PAS hydraulic-line pressure with a gauge that can be seen from the driver's seat - to see if there's any evidence of significant swings in line pressure when the wobbliness is actually happening. A sticky pressure-regulator valve in the PAS pump can cause some _very_ strange symptoms, as can a restriction of any kind in the pressure-feed pipe to the box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 4, 2014 Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 Sorry for the rant, it was just how I read that post. Any particular reason why you want to replace it with another 6 bolt? or have I picked up the wrong idea. I'm sure I saw an advert on here for a chap selling a nearly new adwest 4 bolt for a very very good price... Well mainly because it's got a six-bolt now and I'm not 100% sure the pipe fittings are the same on a 4-bolt. I don't want to have to start swapping pipes and/or pumps as well. As I say, I have a 4-bolt in the garage so will have a look at that. It came off a 1993 110 which had the later type of 200Tdi PAS pump and different fittings at that end of the pipes at least. Will see what the fittings are on the box end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 I have considered it, in fact I have a Disco arm sat in the garage for this eventuality, however a number of things have stopped me from fitting it: 1. I have a 6-bolt Gemmer PAS box, every reference I've found to the Disco conversion has been on a 4-bolt box - so I'm not sure it would fit as the drop arm for my box type is different to that from others. 2. It means getting the arm off the box - no mean feat in itself! 3. My usage is generally fairly light duty and so I would expect the ball joint to last a long time. If I had a 4-bolt box and so could be sure it would fit then I would probably do it. As it is I really don't want to be stuck without a vehicle because the new arm won't go on and I've cut the old one off! The 3 and 4 bolt boxes are the same splines for the drop arm, but the 6 bolt is different. Apologies for not reading much else but I'm at work, have you looked at the panhard bolts? I had a worn bolt which was allowing movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 4, 2014 Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 Yes the panhard rod appears to be nice and secure, I can't generate any movement of the bushes with a big screwdriver anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) James, if you haven't yet replaced the UJs at genuine prices, do give Paddocks a chance. I bought a top joint from them last year, it was in a white box, but looked and felt like an excellent quality part, and I was more than happy to fit it. Best part was that it cost circa £15! Edit: And you know how fussy I am about parts Edited June 5, 2014 by mickeyw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 James, continuing the theme of 6-bolt to 4-bolt conversion - I just took the wing off my 110, so an ideal opportunity to look at the 6-bolt box. Comparing the positions of the pipe connections, they are not quite the same - but I reckon there would sufficient give in the pipes to allow them to be fitted to either box, assuming the port threads are the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 If you need that much steering wheel movement to start displacing the road wheels, you have severe wear or slack in the system and it should be very easy to find. It sounds to me like the PAS box is worn. Tracking should be 1.2 to 2.4mm toe out at the rim. 1mm toe out at the tyre shoulder is too little and will not help your handling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 Thanks chaps. Pictures are useful, cheers Mickey. I think it's worth a go if all else fails. I should be able to tell side by side if the pipes will fit as you suggest. Snagger, the movement at the wheel doesn't concern me - at the straight ahead position there is very little movement of the steering wheel before the road wheels move (I think 1/2" was a bit of an exaggeration). I certainly wouldn't say there was any significant play in the system. Your comments re. the toe-out are interesting, I had always measured it at the tyre and not the rim. This is fairly easy to change so I will get the car up on stands at the weekend and re-set the tracking again and see if that makes any difference. I have sourced a nearly new 4-bolt box which once I have picked it up I can fit if I have no luck with the easy stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffR Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I have been chasing the same symptoms on the family Disco, changed just about everything over the past year - suspension, bushes, steering box n drop arm, column ujs, swivel hub preload, the bloody lot, still cannot get to the bottom of it....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 PAS pipes for 4 & 6 bolt boxes are the same, my 110 had a 6 bolt & it wad replaced by me with a 4 bolt, no change to any pipes. What state are the front axle radius arm bushes in ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 PAS pipes for 4 & 6 bolt boxes are the same, my 110 had a 6 bolt & it wad replaced by me with a 4 bolt, no change to any pipes. What state are the front axle radius arm bushes in ? Bushes are OK I believe, can't detect any play in them beyond the normal rubber flex. So the new tyres have been on for about three weeks (2,000 miles) and don't show any signs of incorrect tracking as of yet, it's still set as it was so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulnb57 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 I had a similar very frustrating problem on the other halfs 90, after many parts changes I eventually removed the Panhard Rod bolts and they were ovalled slightly, my point here is levering the Panhard rod suggested there was no issue, removal suggested otherwise and new bolts cured it......also check the fit of the bolt on the brackets as they can oval too, easy fix by welding a washer on.....but remove the rod to check! Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted September 27, 2014 Author Share Posted September 27, 2014 Right, I've just got back in from a test drive after changing the steering box for a recently reconditioned (I am told) 4-bolt box, onto which I put a brand new Adwest drop arm/ball joint (after battling to remove the Disco arm from it, then failing and having to resort to Mr Angry Grinder!). I also replaced the steering column UJs for brand new genuine Land Rover ones at the same time. The steering is different, which I would expect with a new box. It is lighter and seems quicker to respond (sharper I guess) but the bad shimmy on rough roads at speed is still there unfortunately. I was really hoping changing the box would fix it, kinda running out of things to change now I checked the tracking again too, this time with a sliding curtain pole. There is exactly 2.0mm of toe-out measured at the rim edges. The manual does say 0.00 - 2.00mm so I might try setting it at 0.00mm tomorrow and see what happens. I will also drop the panhard rod off completely and give the bushes a more detailed check. Failing that, I guess I can start at the beginning and get changing things again, might start with the dampers and put a better set on - Koni or the like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 James have you tried setting the swivel pre-load higher than it should be to see if it settles it down any? I asume you have replaced the steering damper with a good one...... If you're passing through at any point I can lend you my spare panhard rod with new bushes fitted.... Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted September 27, 2014 Author Share Posted September 27, 2014 Cheers Neil. Upping the preload on the swivels is another thing I can try, I was concerned about damaging the bearings but I might have no choice. The steering damper is an Armstrong one, so should be as good as one is likely to get. I appreciate the offer re. the panhard rod, I do have another one knocking about somewhere off the 110 so will have a look at that tomorrow and see what state it is in. If I fail I'll let you know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 did this 'wobble' start before or after the new tyres were fitted ? if after try the tyres from the 110. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted September 27, 2014 Author Share Posted September 27, 2014 It's been there since I've owned the car Ralph, through three different sets of wheels/tyres, so I'm fairly sure they are not the cause of the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 rules tyres out then, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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