Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[deep]

22 hours ago, ThreePointFive said:

I have grown grow weary of Skipper and Champ's wholesome All-American review style. Which one scraped its belly?

Exactly.  The Defender won the test.  It was also quieter and more comfortable getting there, could carry and tow far more (despite the Jeep having a hemi V8 under the bonnet) and was cheaper.  I guess the viewer could be objective about that because they did, at least, report those facts.

[landroversforever]

2 hours ago, JeremySteel said:

A bit better than the 2018 Wrangler.

That wheelarch protector is awful. Aren't they Dealer-fitted? If so, the Saturday Boy has some work to do or the part is duff. Any Customer would be, how shall I say, unimpressed and the Workshop manager should be having words.

This chap shows how to fit them:  We Fit Our All New Land Rover Defender With Extended Wheel Arch Protection Kit VPLEP0379 - YouTube

(He gets everywhere!)

The arch protection seems to be a factory option, part of the explorer pack. 

[Retroanaconda]

It’s dealer fit though, all the accessory packs are. 

[ThreePointFive]

1 hour ago, deep said:

Exactly.  The Defender won the test.  It was also quieter and more comfortable getting there, could carry and tow far more (despite the Jeep having a hemi V8 under the bonnet) and was cheaper.  I guess the viewer could be objective about that because they did, at least, report those facts.

I meant to say, I wasn't going to watch it as I am a bit 'over' their stilted back-and-forth delivery style ("I think the new Defender is good but unreliable, what do you think Tommy" "I think it's unreliable but good, Dad" "valuable insight, Tommy") so I wasn't being rhetorical when I asked which one scraped, but having watched it now, initially I assumed it must have been the Defender because of how they were talking. They cannot say that the Defender will do 80% of what the Wrangler will do, then show it doing 100% of what the Wrangler does but also better than the Wrangler did it.

The most annoying part is that I don't doubt they're right, but the quality of their testing does not demonstrate this as fact and renders the statement pointless. If they need to design a better test, they should have done that.

[landroversforever]

1 hour ago, Retroanaconda said:

It’s dealer fit though, all the accessory packs are. 

Ahhhh

[Naks]

https://carbuzz.com/news/land-rover-defender-stars-in-new-overlanding-documentary

"The A&E network and Land Rover North America are partnering on a new documentary called "All You Need To Know: Overlanding." The 60-minute doc premieres on Sunday, April 18 at 10 p.m. We're guessing LR loves this project as its cars, particularly the Defender, have been historically known for the practice. Though they haven't been the only ones. ..."

 

[deep]

22 hours ago, ThreePointFive said:

I meant to say, I wasn't going to watch it as I am a bit 'over' their stilted back-and-forth delivery style ("I think the new Defender is good but unreliable, what do you think Tommy" "I think it's unreliable but good, Dad" "valuable insight, Tommy") so I wasn't being rhetorical when I asked which one scraped, but having watched it now, initially I assumed it must have been the Defender because of how they were talking. They cannot say that the Defender will do 80% of what the Wrangler will do, then show it doing 100% of what the Wrangler does but also better than the Wrangler did it.

The most annoying part is that I don't doubt they're right, but the quality of their testing does not demonstrate this as fact and renders the statement pointless. If they need to design a better test, they should have done that.

It's funny because their Defenders haven't really been unreliable.  The first one, with the scrapped engine, worked just fine except an engine warning light came on for an undetectable issue.  It didn't let them down.  The second was scrapped by a clumsy mechanic (though my mind boggles that changing part of a wiring loom is more costly than a replacement vehicle!).  Their current one seems to soldier along pretty well.  It didn't just beat the Jeep in this test either.  It took on three pick up trucks and a couple of station wagons and beat them in an extended test.  

I have to wonder which of the two in the latest test I'd pick to cross some Australian deserts (a thing I once did in an earlyish Range Rover)?  Both would be too thirsty, both would have a worry of breakdowns hanging over them but I bet the Defender would have me eating less dust and arriving feeling fresher.  Which probably makes the Jeep better, 'cos it would feel more like an adventure, which is probably their point...

[Chicken Drumstick]

For me I think this pic sort of sums it up. While the Defender can be made to be capable, it always seems like hard work. While something like the Wrangler (or RRC, Disco1/2, p38, traditional 90/110) just make it look effortless.

The Wrangler is akin to the Lotus Elise or Caterham 7 of the off road world. While the new Defender is more akin to being the Focus ST.

 

[Escape]

20 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

While the Defender can be made to be capable, it always seems like hard work. While something like the Wrangler (or RRC, Disco1/2, p38, traditional 90/110) just make it look effortless.

I think you have that the wrong way around. When I drove the new Defender offroad, it made everything look effortless. In fact, I didn't like it because it didn't need much driver input, so wasn't engaging or rewarding to drive. But it is a very easy way to make sure you get where you need or want to be. If I had put my P38 (without TC) or a standard RRC/D1/Def in the same position crossing the ditch, it would have been properly stuck. And even with TC it would have required a good amount of throttle to pull through, the new Defender just drove out at idle, no drama at all.

There is some merit to your comparision with Elise vs Focus ST. The first is a proper drivers' car, but like all Lotus needs a competent driver to be fast.
Modern fast cars (the Nissan GTR springs to mind) just require a lead foot and pointing the steering wheel in roughly the right direction and the computers will work hard to get you there as fast as possible. Not my idea of fun, but no doubt very capable.

Filip

[Chicken Drumstick]

3 hours ago, Escape said:

I think you have that the wrong way around. When I drove the new Defender offroad, it made everything look effortless. In fact, I didn't like it because it didn't need much driver input, so wasn't engaging or rewarding to drive. But it is a very easy way to make sure you get where you need or want to be. If I had put my P38 (without TC) or a standard RRC/D1/Def in the same position crossing the ditch, it would have been properly stuck. And even with TC it would have required a good amount of throttle to pull through, the new Defender just drove out at idle, no drama at all.

 

Filip

I was meaning more that the new Defender ends up with wheels in the air, wheel slip and in the TFL vid that I took the screenshot from, looks a bit like a bucking Bronco in slow motion. Don't get me wrong, the TCS is very good. But it never seems as smooth off road. Watch vids of the D3/4 or L320 RRS off road and compare D2's and Defenders and you get the same sort of thing. Obviously the lack of traction devices on the older models mean when cross axled they are likely to be stopped. But overall the vehicles always look more composed and those with TCS or aftermarket lockers/ATB's seem to me much more smooth on such terrain.

[deep]

12 hours ago, Escape said:

I think you have that the wrong way around. When I drove the new Defender offroad, it made everything look effortless. In fact, I didn't like it because it didn't need much driver input, so wasn't engaging or rewarding to drive. But it is a very easy way to make sure you get where you need or want to be. If I had put my P38 (without TC) or a standard RRC/D1/Def in the same position crossing the ditch, it would have been properly stuck. And even with TC it would have required a good amount of throttle to pull through, the new Defender just drove out at idle, no drama at all.

There is some merit to your comparision with Elise vs Focus ST. The first is a proper drivers' car, but like all Lotus needs a competent driver to be fast.
Modern fast cars (the Nissan GTR springs to mind) just require a lead foot and pointing the steering wheel in roughly the right direction and the computers will work hard to get you there as fast as possible. Not my idea of fun, but no doubt very capable.

Filip

I made a very similar reply, which has mysteriously gone missing.  Never mind, great minds think alike.  I think, if the Focus ST gets around a race track quicker, while being roomier, more comfortable and cheaper (though less exciting), the comparison is valid...

[deep]

Oh yes, I think calling that tank of a Jeep the "Caterham 7 of the off road world" is a bit hilarious.  There are plenty of much smaller and more spritely options that don't drag their fat bellies across the rocks!

[Chicken Drumstick]

18 minutes ago, deep said:

Oh yes, I think calling that tank of a Jeep the "Caterham 7 of the off road world" is a bit hilarious.  There are plenty of much smaller and more spritely options that don't drag their fat bellies across the rocks!

The Caterham is a specialist in its field. And offers function over the form. The Wrangler and old Defender did the same. I.e. it’s native design is suited to its niche abilities at the compromise of other abilities.  Has nothing to do with size or weight.
 

meaning if you want the ultimate driving experience or track car. Something like the Caterham is about as good as you can buy off the shelf. Something like a Focus ST on the other hand, is capable of as fast or quicker lap times than many Caterham models. But will never reward the same or offer the same sensations. On the flip side the ST would be good for taking the kids to the supermarket. The Caterham would suck. 
 

the Wrangler does the same (or old Defender). But rather than track work, their specialty is off roading. The new Defender can use electric wizardry to enable to roll on the same dirt. But will be unable to match the specialisation ultimately or the sensations. But will be better as a daily driver or shopping car as a result.  

[Mo Murphy]

People will notice the Caterham but not the Focus, likewise with the Wrangler/Defender and the Pretender.

Mo

[Snagger]

That is true, but buying cars to be noticed is a bit of a poor reason.  Buying cars to enjoy them is a good reason, and while the Pretender has great capability when it’s all working and is probably more comfortable for long journeys (I wasn’t impressed by sitting in it and have no problem with the pre-Puma models as long as the seats were moved inboard an inch or so), I can’t see it bringing the same fun and satisfaction.  It lacks character, like the Ford in the analogy.

[deep]

21 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

The Caterham is a specialist in its field. And offers function over the form. The Wrangler and old Defender did the same. I.e. it’s native design is suited to its niche abilities at the compromise of other abilities.  Has nothing to do with size or weight.
 

meaning if you want the ultimate driving experience or track car. Something like the Caterham is about as good as you can buy off the shelf. Something like a Focus ST on the other hand, is capable of as fast or quicker lap times than many Caterham models. But will never reward the same or offer the same sensations. On the flip side the ST would be good for taking the kids to the supermarket. The Caterham would suck. 
 

the Wrangler does the same (or old Defender). But rather than track work, their specialty is off roading. The new Defender can use electric wizardry to enable to roll on the same dirt. But will be unable to match the specialisation ultimately or the sensations. But will be better as a daily driver or shopping car as a result.  

Methinks the good sir is tripping over himself a bit.  Maybe even being argumentative for the sake of it?  The test in question proves the Defender is a better design for its function, despite its form, while the Jeep is designed for image ahead of function, as proved by the video.

Not that I want to defend the design of the ugly new Defender (which, apart from being vastly more complex than it needs to be, fails in its nod to the past and isn't cutting edge modern either).  Nevertheless, like the Focus compared to the Caterham, it is the more functional of the two.  An off-roader that can't keep its belly off the ground, even with considerably bigger tyres (the Jeep), is not well designed for that niche.  A two door Wrangler might have been a better choice.  Or a Unimog...

[deep]

There's a new video out (sorry, can't post a link) of the new Ford Bronco doing some tricky bits of trail in Moab.  In some markets, it's going to be a head-on competitor with the new Defender and, I have to say, it's looking very impressive.  This one had the "Sasquatch" package, with 35" tyres.  The very fact that tyre size is a factory option tells us that off-road ability was an important part of the design brief.  It actually seems closer to the old Defender than the new Defender does!

 

[reb78]

I wish Ford would/could sell some of their US models over here!

[L19MUD]

20 hours ago, reb78 said:

I wish Ford would/could sell some of their US models over here!

Me too, I love the look of the Bronco and I am still trying to convince the OH (and myself) that a LHD F150 would be a perfect L332 replacement!

[reb78]

3 hours ago, L19MUD said:

Me too, I love the look of the Bronco and I am still trying to convince the OH (and myself) that a LHD F150 would be a perfect L332 replacement!

I am in exactly the same position! (Replace the l322 in your sentence with d3 in mine)

Edited April 23, 2021 by reb78

[L19MUD]

18 minutes ago, reb78 said:

I am in exactly the same position! (Replace the l322 in your sentence with d3 in mine)

Whilst mad money I think this is the perfect truck

 

https://www.clivesutton.co.uk/vehicles/12733045-ford-f150-raptor/

 

[landroversforever]

1 hour ago, L19MUD said:

Whilst mad money I think this is the perfect truck

 

https://www.clivesutton.co.uk/vehicles/12733045-ford-f150-raptor/

 

I do like them. Nice to see that they've bothered to make the dash a nice thing to look at.... not the boring every-model-looks-the-same of the UK cars.

[landroversforever]

On the subject of the Yank stuff... always wondered why people don't bring in the aussie RHD versions. 

[deep]

We see a few of them here in New Zealand (also right hand drive).  Currently they are pushing RAMs on the telly, as proper trucks that can tow a lot more than the run of the mill crew cabs (fair point too - that's how a lot of them are getting used on the road, it appears).  If Ford brought a RHD Bronco in, it would plug a decent gap in the market.  Currently, their Everest is seen as the serious wagon in the Ford range but it's really only a Ranger with a better rear end.  

There really isn't much available here, if you want a new car with off-road competence.  New Defenders cost as much as I paid for my house and I rarely even see dusty ones, let alone dented ones*.  Most people buy second hand imports and jazz them up (and break them, like the V8 Toyota I found blocking a track yesterday) or take the ubiquitous crew cab and throw big tyres and a lift kit at them.  When you see how EVERY track has been destroyed over the last few years, you can tell it hasn't been a successful recipe!

*A complete aside - we now have a new rule that, if your sills are dented, you won't pass a warrant of fitness.  Talk about discouraging anyone from using a new vehicle off road...

[reb78]

If it was easy to bring Aussie Ford stuff over I would have a '74 XB GT Falcon in the garage. (You might guess one of my favourite films from that...)